XBK Chat (unofficial archive)

Paul · Joined: 13 Mar 2004 Posts: 72

ifegenia wrote:

ifegenia · Joined: 12 Apr 2004 Posts: 17

From the "Guru Papers" - On Channeling Disembodied Authorities --

"Assumptions about Channeling"

There is no way ultimately to prove to everyone's satisfaction where a given voice comes from. So, the most revealing and also resolvable questions on channeling involve what the voice is actually saying; the implications of what is said; and whether the voice is assumed to have a direct line to the truth, making it unchallengeable and therefore authoritarian.....

....Some who call themselves channels may be merely milking the gullible; but we assume that many who channel believe in what they are doing. It is only the latter who interest us.

Those who believe an external intelligence is the source of the voice or writings make at least some of the following assumptions:

1. Being disembodied makes the entity a pure (or purer) voice of cosmic wisdom and spirituality.

2. The entity not only knows more, but can access information otherwise inaccessible, or at least exceedingly difficult to get on one's own.

3. The entity tells the truth.

4. People's well-being is the entity's basic interest.

5. The entity knows what's best for a given human or humans in general.

6. These entities would not be motivated by power or wrongly manipulate those who come to them. In short, they have no self-interest.

7. One is better off getting the information than not.

The thread running through these assumptions is that disembodied entities are reliable, trustworthy, benevolent authorities with a deeper understanding of the nature of things. Here channeling, like gurus, creates a context of privileged knowledge that essentially cannot be challenged.

Should one give disembodied entities any credence at all, the drama and excitement of a supposed spirit entering a mortal to reveal deep, hidden truths evokes a seductive, magical aura of seemingly ultimate cosmic portent. Wanting to believe that spirits have a direct line to the truth ties into a deep yearning for something truly pure one can trust. When values of purity have been implanted, it becomes difficult to trust oneself as one is never pure enough. So looking for someone or something more pure fits neatly into people's deepest "pure-itanical" conditioning, which instills self-mistrust.

Hearing an inner voice or voices that seem to be coming from outside oneself is neither new nor historically unusual. When the voice urged doing something considered bad or hurtful, it was attributed to possession by evil spirits or the devil; when it voiced values of purity and selflessness, the spirit was assumed to be a messenger of the sacred. Attributing purity to another realm and the information that supposedly comes from it is part of the age-old split between the sacred and secular created by renunciate religions.

Channeling is an ancient phenomenon necessary for any revealed religion whose unchallengeable dictates have to come from God. God's wishes can only be known in three ways: either God has to speak through a person or assume a human form, or a person has to become godlike (the East's enlightenment paradigm).

......whether the true source of a given voice comes from oneself, a collective unconscious, other living minds, disembodied human or non-human spirits, or anything else is not subject to universally accepted verification. Every explanation of channeling phenomena has behind it a worldview that can be challenged by a different worldview. But what we find indisputable is that for thousands of years, people have been seeking external authorities, whether they be leaders, gods, extra-terrestrials, oracles, or channels, to reveal the truth and make things all right. From our perspective, this very mentality is a large part of what has brought the world to where it is today.

So, putting aside whether supposed spirits actually exist or not, the very looking to external authorities to make life right is merely recapitulating an age-old drama. Looking for a savior (or to be one) is the old solution that now has become part of the problem.

The above is from "The Guru Papers" Masks of Authoritarian Power
by Joel Kramer & Diana Alstad

This book was helpful in regaining a sense of perspective when I left the BKs. I think it is highly relevant for X-BKS

kyra · Joined: 19 Apr 2004 Posts: 66

Oh what marvelous questions, and you know i never really thought about it. I guess I see SB as being God just under another name. I like this thing of rememberance, for me its something I do naturally ever day anyways because God is never far from my thoughts or conversations. It just helps me to remember that I can always be a better person and I am never alone even though sometimes it feels that way for me.

I dont believe he/she speaks through a medium however I do like some elements of this "knowledge SB speaks" if that makes sense (i know its a complete contradiction yet its hard to explain)

gyaniwasi · Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167

PAUL: I am particularly happy that you have revived this topic. Frankly, I was a bit disappointed when it was so smoothly subsumed by our concern to move on with our lives and the BKs took over responding since, from my own experience, I know how crucial (and excruciating) doubts about the question of Baba's identity have been for me since I left the BKs. Of course I'm not saying that moving on is not as important. Indeed, the importance is felt in the degree of crisis we feel, but it is essential that we acknowledge, or at least be aware of, the extent to which our present ontological security depends on any residual faith in Shiv Baba. I've observed this kind of contradiction in myself and others over the years. That is why I asked those questions at the end of the post "Messenger vis a vis Message: the seed and the fruit" which was written in response to Atma's question 'why doesn't the runner stumble?' I'd like to hear your considered response to that. Now to address that most crucial 'bottom line' question since, as you say, "until and unless we do, there will always be some degree of ambivalence or equivocation in our outlook."

For most of my 20 post-BK years I've been sitting on the fence and, while I've come down, I still have one foot propped against it so I guess that makes me still unsure - maybe 90% so. The 10% has to do with the kind of sentiment and memories I still have embedded in my psyche. I imagine it's like a divorce after many years of a good marriage. People heal and become friends again after coming to terms with their own deficiencies and that of others. But in order to do this they have to accept that the other was not 'the perfect spouse' that they imagined or believed in during the golden days. As Atma said, once innocence is lost it's lost. [Interestingly, though, after reading that, I was reflecting on the use of one of those well known "theme songs" from Bhakti for the Sakar Murli: Do not forget your childhood days or you will weep in return ... Remember that? I sometimes wonder at the power and effect of that admonition] Okay, now let's consider the questions:

Do you feel he could be God?

No. Unless we can get clear responses to the questions we've had over the years without being chastised for a lack of faith or being told they are not important.

If you believe that he is not God, then what do you think he is?

It is possible that he is a being from another spatio-temporal dimension in the universe. Check out "The Urantia Book" for instance (even after Martin Gardner's critique of it). Ifegenia's excerpt might give us some clues here.

Do you believe that he can be God even if the "knowledge" or some essential aspects of it, is untrue, incorrect, false?

That would contradict the one essential quality we look for in God - Integrity.

If the knowledge is false, then what would the motivation be for putting it out all these long years?

The answer to this may lie in realms of knowledge about the universe and it inhabitants which is very arcane to us.

Are we dealing with negative, deceptive, demonic powers here?

Demonic and negative, I'm not sure because of the nature of the "service to humanity"; deceptive - possibly, because we cannot be sure which beings below God are fully enlightened. We have moved into an age when our awareness of an expanding universe demands a more evolved level of religion, a shifting of paradigms. It is possible that there are other beings who might have lived some lives on earth, moved into another dimension and are doing their own "service to humanity" within their "capacity to love". This brings us to the PBKs hint about the difference between the voice of Shiv Baba when he delivered the Sakar Murlies as compared to the Avyakt. The voice of the Sakar Murli played to us on the occasions of January 18 was strong, deeply masculine and quite human (they used to say you could only tell the difference by the content of what was said); the voice of the Avyakt Murlis, on the other hand, is like that of a disembodied soul. The latter could be Dada Lekraj's return to serve his "children" before he moves on. Similarly, I've sometimes wondered whether the experience of 1936 didn't come from a disembodied soul since the senior sisters who used to "dramatise" the episode for us would imitate Shiv Baba in a slow whisper - avyakt style. One other point I'd like to raise here: in some schools of mysticism, it is said that the soul reincarnates in cycles of about 144 years. If the soul leaves the earth plane before that time then it remains in the 'spirit world' until its next incarnation. If this is so then the next birth of Dada Lekraj's soul (Shri Krishna ?:)should be around 2020 (1876+144).

Does the entity gain by being "remembered"?

I once asked a senior sister that question and she gave me a clever smile and said "No, He does not depend on our love". It seems to me that there are two aspects to remembrance - one is of the Supreme Soul, the other of Prajapita Brahma. For those who are advanced in the BK path the two are merged into Bapdada. Now, when BKs do service to the public they direct attention to the Supreme Soul and because humans need that kind of connection it is very good karma. In that regard, 'the runner will not stumble.' Similarly, if "the entity" is admonishing us to remember God then it is good karmas for that soul also. The problem arises when we remember "the entity" as the combined form of Bapdada because that brings into question the whole concept of the cycle and our eternal relation to God and the Truth. The harmony of the Golden Age depends on the 'love bonds' fostered within the divine family of the Confluence Age. [I'll try to explain that point (as I understand it) under the post "The Gathering of Shankars"]. In that regard, if "the entity" is Brahma (Dada Lekraj's soul) then he stands to gain from that "meeting of sanskars" - even if the whole knowledge is a hoax, there's a lot of love vibrations there to nurture him. When God becomes so accessible to us though, we expect a little more clarity from Him since the "purer" the intellect becomes the sharper would be its power of discrimination and it is difficult to put a limit to its "churning" - unless of course it surrenders its independence in blind faith.

What is really going on, in your opinion?

Not sure. I'm trying to figure it out myself.

'The various criticisms of cults that have been made are spot on. However, if we are to be objective and have "fidelity to the truth" we must concede that the incorporeal nature of the source sets the BKs apart from other movements. A human guru would have been easier to pick apart. That point was previously made.'

I think ifegenia did a brilliant insert for us in response to this point!

And me? I also have an opinion. However, for now I will let you give yours. I wouldn't want to influence anyone's answers by giving my views first. But I will return and give my two cents worth later. Thats a promise.

I look forward to hearing your views on this Paul. Thanks again for the support.

ifegenia: I really appreciate your apt intervention here Exclamation

_________________
"Those were the days my friend ...."

isabel · Joined: 24 Mar 2004 Posts: 39

Great question, Paul and some very thought provoking responses. I'll throw in my 2 cents when I have a nice BIG chunk of time

gyaniwasi · Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167

But where is Atma! I'm sure Paul must be waiting on him at least! Smile

_________________
"Those were the days my friend ...."

Atma · Joined: 26 Feb 2004 Posts: 98

Atma at your service! Smile

I used to believe, without reservation, that SB is God. I had no doubt. Now, I am not so sure. Do you remember the story of the blind men and the elephant? One felt the leg and thought it was a column, one felt the trunk and thought the creature was a rope....and so on. It may be so with the BKs and God too.

Intuitively, I do not, and have never, sensed any negative / evil energy from the BKs, the Murlis or in Abu itself. I certainly did not sense that when I witnessed Baba in person, speaking through Dadi Gulzar. I sensed a pure, benevolent spirit.

As gyaniwasi said, "they teach purity". That is true. Ironically, I think that the "cleanliness and sincerity" in the movement makes people assume that the message must be true and therefore the messenger must be God. I say "ironically" because that assumption may be the fatal step where so many go off in a direction from which its hard to retreat or return.

I think it was Isabel who wrote about the intoxication of feeling special.....but that, as time goes by, the voice of reason becomes harder to ignore. I agree completely. It becomes harder to ignore the fact that the cyclic scheme - and the 5000 years duration of the cycle / earth time - is completely at odds with what science / archeology tells us. There is no convincing explanation in "the knowledge" for the prehistoric creatures. There is no logical explanation for how the various races of people came about. One BK sister attempeted to explain it by saying that weather and geographic conditions as well as the sanskars of souls produce the external physiological features of people. I can't accept that. Weather and temperature may be a factor in affecting skin colour but can't, in my opinion, account for other features, like African hair, Oriental eyes, blond hair etc. Further, the evidence is huge and mounting that man is not alone in the universe.

Kudos to ifegenia. The excerpt that you referenced is priceless - very much on point and illuminating. However, I - and the others I am sure - would like to know this : what you have personally concluded? Who, or what, is Shiv Baba? And, as Paul asked, what is going on?

As I mentioned in another post, I am a "nibbler", so this post is not exhaustive on this topic. I may revisit it again. It seems that some of the other XBKs are even less than nibblers Smile

For some reason, they seem to be "shy" in addressing the questions that Paul asked. Don't be "shy".....lets hear what you think and feel Smile

One last thing. I am going to open up two topics. One will be "Problematic aspects of "the knowledge". The other topic will be "Concerns about the knowledge even if it is true". Sounds intriguing? I think that, when we start to contribute to those two threads, clarity may come as we write.

Stay well.

ifegenia · Joined: 12 Apr 2004 Posts: 17

atma wrote:

gyaniwasi · Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167

I think a big part of our problem is that, unlike the eastern mind, the western mind has not had the benefit of a strong and open tradition of mystical knowledge and experiences as in Eastern cultures. I've read that that aspect of Western culture has been traditionally suppressed by the 'holy fathers' of the Christian churches. Consequently, our cultural experience has been somewhat lopsided. The Western aspirant has to join or affiliate with a Lodge or some other mystical school of thought to satisfy what he or she feels is an essential need to experience God on a deeper level. That is why I think we were so susceptible to the path: not only was it simple but the psychic experience of the centres and Madhuban was something alien to us. Not so with the Indians apparently. I always remember a small but significant incident that occurred once at the foot of Abu: A small group of us had just descended from Madhuban full of intoxication and faith that we had the great fortune of meeting God face to face. We boarded the train and with great enthusiam began to share our Faith and relate our experiences with the conductor. He was an elderly Indian gentleman - gentle in manner and speech. As a matter of fact, he reminded me somewhat of Brother Nirwar. He listened to us with a benevolent smile then gently said, "Yes, I remember your Baba. He used to travel on this very train." "No, no! You don't understand" we said, "that was Prajapita Brahma you used to see but we are talking about Shiva, the Almighty!" He gazed at us and in a voice of tired resignation declared: "Your Baba was not God. He was a just a good man, a saint." Then he left us to ourselves.

I share this because it is similar to the way a mind nurtured in a spiritual culture like India sees the Western mind that is unaccustomed to a commonly spiritual milieu. Years ago, someone lent me a book that dealt with that - the gullibility of the Western mind to Indian culture.

I think as we become aware or enlightened about our spiritual potentials or capabilities as humans - whether of Eastern or Western tradition - the miracles or experiences that fascinate us will wear thin and we will be left with the universally existential imperative: to continue evolving towards complete harmony with the Universal God by a path we find within our hearts.
_________________
"Those were the days my friend ...."

isabel · Joined: 24 Mar 2004 Posts: 39

Wonderful post, gyaniwasi. What you say makes a lot of sense -and I think it explains some of the struggle westerners face when the newness wears off.

This need to be a member of something -to have a label as Kyra put it- is I think also part and parcel of the Western experience.

If you remember the title or author of the book you mention, Gyaniwasi, I would be very interested.

Back to Paul's query, the million dollar question. First, what DO we know?

1. When Dadi Gulzar enters into trace, she radiates SOME type of spiritual energy. There is something otherworldly (to Western eyes) going on there.

2. The Brahma Kumaris are not what we would expect an organization led by God and obedient to his/her will to be. The organization and the knowledge simply aren't infalliable enough to reflect the unmediated influence of God. There should be a deep truthful resonance that is lacking -one shouldn't have to constantly justify and interpret the word of God until it finally sits right in our head. (i.e. 5000 year cycle)

What could then be going on? I agree with the other posts that the energy truly feels benevolent.

How to explain point number 2 then? The world's saints seem mostly to have had an extraordinary link to the spiritual world, yet in my view they and they teachings, though amazing and wonderful, have imperfections and inconsistencies. I hope the questions posed by Atma will lead to some interesting explorations of this issue.

Perhaps human messengers will simply always be falliable -just in different ways and to different degrees. The question then is do we continue to follow a falliable organization or go it on our own,

gyaniwasi · Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167

Hi Isabel, here's the link to the book I mentioned: Amazon.com: Books: Karma Cola : Marketing the Mystic East. It's by Gita Mehta.

Reading the extract offered by Amazon has whetted my appetite again. Maybe I should return to it. For some reason I don't think I ever did finish reading it.

Anyway, about your closing comment: Perhaps human messengers will simply always be falliable -just in different ways and to different degrees. The question then is do we continue to follow a falliable organization or go it on our own, "evolving towards complete harmony with the Universal God by a path we find within our hearts", trusting that our own limitations are less than we would find in a spiritual organization. . I think I agree with Ifegenia's reference (Kramer & Alstad) and the existential approach of taking responsibility for your own salvation. Even within Christianity I think too many Christians are misled into thinking that merely their belief in Christ as their saviour is enough to achieve salvation. They seem to miss the point that, having invited the Christ spirit to dwell within them it is their responsibility to remain spiritually awake (or soul conscious) in order to receive His cleansing energy - very similar to the BKs remembrance. I guess what I am saying is that it is the level of our spiritual effort that will determine the quality of our union with God and consequently our final "liberation" or "jeewan mukti" - regardless of the path we choose. As long as it has purity of heart then it will lead us to God like a natural law. In that regard, whether we find such a path in the teachings of an organization or by an eclectic approach (as we xBKs now seem to do) what matters is honesty with ourselves and spiritual wakefulness. That way we will not be trapped in sterile dogma.
_________________
"Those were the days my friend ...."

isabel · Joined: 24 Mar 2004 Posts: 39

The books sounds WONDERFUL. I am looking forward to getting ahold of a copy.

Thanks also for your wise words regarding how to approach one's spiritual path. Embracing this approach has brought me such a feeling of freedom and a renewed delight in exploring the spiritual realm.

Paul · Joined: 13 Mar 2004 Posts: 72

I see we have a new member on board - hanuman. He is very "robust" (and prolific Wink

) in his writings. It would be interesting to read hanuman bhai's answers to the questions I set out at the begining of this topic.

hanuman · Joined: 23 Jun 2004 Posts: 174

Paul,

Thank you very much for inviting me to contribute responses to your probing questions. From my personal lokik and alokik experiences, I would say that the Soul called Shiv Baba is indeed God Almighty.

I came into gyan in 1975 and the circumstances have been strange and in many ways filled with miracles. When I say miracles, real and down to earth miracles. I have been banished from the BKSU for almost 15 years yet, in spite of my Peter Pan or Hermes spiritual life, I still feel the presence of the Supreme.

I am a scientist, veterinarian and educator, yet my day is incomplete if I do not meditate and read Murlis, old Murlis. Though they are old, I still gain spititual benefit from them. Even psychics and astrologers have indicated to me that there is in my presence the company of the Supreme. These individuals were complete strangers and had no introductions about me.

These are only introductory points. My other responses will be given later today.
_________________
Om Shanti,
To my brothers and sisters.

Love to you all,
Errol bhai

hanuman · Joined: 23 Jun 2004 Posts: 174

To Paul, Kyra, Isabel and Gyaniwasi:

There is a magic in each and every Murli that defies logic. Pick up and Murli and read it. At that time, no matter where you are, in the North Pole or Mount Everest, there will be bits of knowledge in it for you. You may say, I have had similar experiences from books.
Some authors as they write can have a limited ability to see with their mind's eyes into the future and address an audience or readers in the future. The original source of the Murli does it with the highest accuracy and precision to any of the souls currently playing their roles on Earth.
Reading is a metacognitive experience which many readers do not appreciate. When they do, the reading material has a variety of transformative powers. The reader can under a morphogenesis. They can awaken latent abilities which are unlocked by reading.
SB's yukti of enabling souls to read and listen to the Murli at the maximum metacognitative level is Raj yoga.
Malcom X is an example of some one who experienced the benefits of reading at a metacognitative level. He was able to morph from a felon to a highly awakened soul and teacher.
The contents of the Murli have that power to transform an individual. I have always felt that only God Almighty has the power to make a person morph from a soul to a super soul. I have found that many xBKs and BKs are so much taken up with SB's identity, that they forget about their own unique spiritual nature. Take it or leave it, we are all supersouls who have and are interacting with the Supreme at this time of world history. This is the beauty of the Confluence. It can be chilling on the mind. It is, however, a cold stone fact! Very Happy

My relationship with SB has been close and personal, even though I seemed to visit Madhuban every decade or two. Though I have been brought up a Christian, I never accepted Christ as my savior. I always "saw" got as a person, non-corporeal spirit who was separate from all the prophets and angels. Even though I entered gyan as an apprentice of science, and steeped in the traditions of Occidental learning, gyan made sense to me on an intellectual and spiritual level from day 1. It seemed as though, Baap-Dada was preparing me during my teenage years for a spiritual awakening.
One day in the winter of 1969, I was in a book store in Georgetwon, Guyana, pouring over books on karate and yoga. I was particularly drawn to the teachings of Shotokan karate and was fascinated by a picture of the founding Grand master of the Japan Karate Association Shotokan school, Sensie [b]Gichen Funakoshi[/b]. He seemed to be more a monk than a sensie. I was also fascinated by books on yoga.
I made a dream like wish. It was a wish that when I grew up I would awake early in the morning and practice yoga and karate on a lawn. As I made the wish my mind was transported into the future and I felt myself being a doctor practicing yoga and karate on a lawn during the pre-dawn hours of the morning.
In the summer of 1995, I was applying for a fellowship for postgraduate studies in veterinary medicine in London. At that time I was a graduate student at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. Close to my apartment was a well kept park where I would practice karate kata aerly in the morning, especially on weekends. Before dawn I would meditate. Simple wishes can sometimes be transformed to real situations.
Many BKs like to contend that lokik pursuits can be humbugs for gyan. I beg to differ. SB accepts and respects a variety of souls.
_________________
Om Shanti,
To my brothers and sisters.

Love to you all,
Errol bhai