XBK Chat (unofficial archive)

Atma · Joined: 26 Feb 2004 Posts: 98

I thought I would ask this open ended question, and see what my fellow XBKchat members have to say. I will give my own response to this question later on, but first I'd like to hear from others.

What effect has being a member of this site had on you? Have you benefited by reading and making posts here? If so, in what way? Since becoming an XBKchat member, have you seen your own views, and that of others, evolve and change over time? If so, what caused the change, and is it for the better? Any other observations and comments?

kyra · Joined: 19 Apr 2004 Posts: 66

This board has given my partner and I many interesting topics to discuss and debate between ourselves, it has provided us a link with other people who have lived the Brahmin lifestyle and then gone on their own way, it has been interesting to read the experiences of others and also has sometimes given me clarity on things I was confused about for myself.

On the other hand it has also shown me even more the arrogance that surrounds the Brahmin culture and the double standards and contradictions they preach as teaching.

Recently this board has also instigated long talks with my partner and friends on God, who he is and what his role is and does he even exist, maybe these things we imagine. What if this God character is the opposite of all those things I thought before.

While I havent thrown away my love for that in whom I feel is God - I think it is healthy to question and explore things we dont understand.

zhukov · Joined: 10 Apr 2004 Posts: 86

It has shown me that there is nothing 'wrong' with me simply because I failed to 'brainwash myself' into belief....

Joel · Joined: 09 Nov 2004 Posts: 102

I've been having more BK-centric dreams. Do other XBKs still dream in BK themes??

Incidentally, the quality of my dreams was one of the indicators that told me that 10+ years of medication and BK discipline had not been able to unseat (or even significantly shift, much less resolve) my inner conflicts at the time.

Since leaving the BKs, life has shifted in that:

* Many things I believed I needed to change I now accept as fundamental aspects of myself.

* Some things that I tried to change by force (of intellect, of godly love, etc.) have changed through time, the healing acceptance of friends, and experiences through new challenges.

* I am more patient with aspects of myself I believe I need to and want to change, but that continue to flourish or otherwise re-express themselves.

And I still dream of BKs and BK situations.

I would say that writing up my experiences here on XBK Chat has been a pleasant distraction from other more pressing tasks, good fodder for an aspiring author.

O/T--Some writing tips from Beat author Jack Kerouac:

* Keep you eye on the jewel center of attention
* You're a genius all the time

hanuman · Joined: 23 Jun 2004 Posts: 174

I'm able to maintain contact with the most significant alumni of any school in world history!
I regard each and every member of xBK Chat to be a special soul.
It is always a great pleasure experiencing the meeting of minds from around the globe. Smile

Pardon me if I sound like a BK. I'm an xBK and I speak from the heart.
It is in many respects a fun site.
_________________
Om Shanti,
To my brothers and sisters.

Love to you all,
Errol bhai

Babbit · Joined: 31 Dec 2004 Posts: 8 Location: UK

I�m new to XBK Chat Forum, so hello to everyone. This forum feels like a lifeline because I think I am now an XBK, with all the confusion, self-annoyance and baggage that comes with facing that decision. After six months of increasingly intense reflection, at Christmas I came to a final conclusion that (for me) the BKs are a cult and I�m through with them. Part of me feels upset, fragile and adrift; another part feels calm and free and strong. I was relatively new (a BK for just over three years), but everyone referred to me as a �last-go-fast� person. I went to murli every day for three years.

I�ve read a lot of the posts in the XBKs only site; they�ve made me feel much less alone now that I no longer want to be part of this organisation. But I wonder what to do next about a few issues:

One of the reasons in making my decision was that several BK friends became excited and intoxicated by the PBK information. Although it didn�t make me want to be a PBK, I was willing to listen and to acknowledge the positive changes in them. It made me think about things in the BK system that were bothering me, and to realise that in the last six months I had been drifting away; that I just wasn�t able to believe it any longer.

After about six weeks, there was a heated confrontation in the centre and the senior sister told my friends that they were no longer welcome there. Even though I had heard the rumours that anyone who even dabbles with PBK stuff was summarily dismissed, I was really shocked to see this was indeed the case. Up until then, I really thought (or hoped) that the BKs were pure enough in their intentions and confident in their spiritual vision to be open and not threatened by dissent. It�s pretty hypocritical to say that you are chosen by God and then start banning people who more or less want the same things as you (most outsiders would struggle to slip a cigarette paper between the BK & PBK philosophies). If the BK knowledge is Truth, surely nothing can dilute that; nothing can threaten it? Apparently not. I keep asking �why?� � perhaps another indication that I wasn�t cut out to be a pukka BK, eh?

I want to email or speak to the senior sister and ask why these people were kicked out. She does not know that I have been in contact with them, and I have not been to the centre lately. In some respects, I want to give her a chance to tell that side of the story, but I�m not entirely sure if the reason I want to do this is to catch her in some sort of lie (or at least a hefty exaggeration) because she thinks I have no contact with them. Part of me wants her to come up with a reasonable explanation, although I�ve racked my brains for what would qualify. My question, therefore, is �should I do this?�

I�ve got two more questions . . . do I tell the centre that I�m done with the BKs, or do I just fade away? They don�t yet know I�ve come to this decision, but can guess that something is up because I�ve been �having a break� for a couple months, although I have shown up to do service occasionally, because my service does not involve giving gyan, so I did not have as much of a conflict with it.

Last question: I think at a superficial level (like public talks or workshops), the BKs are good at providing people an experience of spirituality and peace, so do I carry on giving them money?

I�m really angry and annoyed at myself for getting sucked into this � aren�t I supposed to be an intelligent person?!? I feel intense disappointment and sadness that I let them do my thinking for me � something that thought I had never allowed in my life before � but it was so subtle and insidious but I have to own up to my complicity in repressing my critical thinking. I am annoyed at myself but also realise that there are myriad lessons and valuable insights I could not have learned any other way. Things are messy in my head right now, and with time the annoyance will die down as I make more sense of the whole matter. Lots of people think I�m so smart. . .I beg to differ.

I did not expect this to be so long when I started writing. I�m pretty churned up at the moment (pardon the pun). Thanks for reading this far, and thank goodness this forum exists � I would feel utterly alone otherwise.

Babbit

Guest · Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2005 6:31 am Post subject:

hello babbit, that was an intense first post Very Happy

You remind me of my mother who stopped going to the centre some months ago (under my influence). She was the main power there in creating a good atmosphere, so of course, they are upset she doesn't come there anymore. We used to be 5 coming there (me, my two sisters, one brother and my mother) and we all left. I don't think you have to communicate anything to them about this ... they know you left anyway Smile

And don't be susprised if you meet them in town that they won't say hello to you anymore ... that's how "pure" they have become!

""Last question: I think at a superficial level (like public talks or workshops), the BKs are good at providing people an experience of spirituality and peace, so do I carry on giving them money?""

My opinion is certainly not! I think that as a human being, having a certain surpluss in money, it is our duty as an act of humanity to give sustenance to charity organisations, but not to religious movements. In anyway, the bk movement has some very rich people standing behind them, so why would you worry giving you money to them?

Paul · Joined: 13 Mar 2004 Posts: 72

Babbit · Joined: 31 Dec 2004 Posts: 8 Location: UK

Hi Paul,

Sorry � your question makes me think I left something out. There is no way I want to be a PBK. My friends are very intoxicated by it, it�s working for them and that�s fine. To me, it�s just another system purporting to be �The Truth� but even more complicated that the BK stuff � very much out of the frying pan and into the fire. It just seems that real truth is simple. I guess what I was trying to convey was that the reaction of the BKs to the PBK threat really shocked me and made the scales fall from my eyes.

My beefs (expression pardoned Wink

) are myriad, and they are only starting to coalesce. What started the separation was the experience of being involved in the planning of a couple very big programmes. I suddenly had the realisation that I was being groomed to do this because I was useful and presentable and had all the right skills despite being a newcomer who probably could have benefited from a little less pressure and high-profile role. Behind-the-scenes episodes showed me an ugly face of the BKs that I had not believed (not wanted to believe) existed � exploiting, pressuring, or demeaning people who were helping or wanted to help.

In all of this, I don�t want it to seem as though I did not realise that I had a choice. I know I let myself be pressured into continuing � ha-ji is a powerful tool of control � but I felt that I started to see things more objectively. By the end of the programmes I was really questioning how my perception had changed so dramatically: I was the same, and they had to be the same. I realised that I stopped seeing things so selectively.

I stuck with it for another six months to see with my new eyes in the hope that the organisation (or its representatives) could redeem itself. But it was broken for me by then: I hated going to murli � everything was fear-based and I could not access the love in the message I once heard � I was impure, doomed and never enough; if I was tired, it wasn�t because I was working more than full-time, it was because my yoga was deficient; the centre residents seemed so sad and exhausted and angry; I thought I would scream if I heard �Baba this, Baba that, Baba the other� one more time � there�s more to life than bluddy Baba! Surely I couldn�t be the only one who thought that there were hefty amounts of dogma, bhakti and religious ritual in the BK system (offering bhog, as a quick example), yet no one else seemed to see this, no one answered me when I said it�s what I thought it was. And then there was the adoration cult of the Dadis. . .

The final nail in the BK coffin came when I was having discussion with a centre resident � guarded at first and then, once she decided I could be trusted, more frank. She asked me, �Do you believe in Bapdada?�. It stopped me dead in my tracks. I had been avoiding this question in my own head for some time. Without effort or volition I said �No, of course not!�. On top of all the other things, it was clear to me at that moment I was no longer a BK.

There�s more, but these are the most coherent things in my head at present. Having re-read what I�ve typed so far, I don�t want it to sound as angry and bile-filled as it does, but it is what it is. Thanks for asking � I can�t believe how much it helps to talk to people who understand.

Kevin � thanks for your words, too. It�s really helpful to draw the distinction between charitable and religious causes for contributions. And you�re right � I haven�t stopped thinking or learning, so there is good in this experience.

Babbit

gyaniwasi · Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167

Hello Babbit,
Welcome to the forum. Yes, you'll find a lot to share and comment on here. I haven't been able to respond as I would like to to Atma's questions, but I endorse much of what you all say.

You know Babbit, if it's one thing I think God - however you conceive "Him" to be - likes and appreciates it's honesty. Whenever I had doubts or misgivings about questions of faith in BK doctrine I'd remember an experience I had long ago when trance messaging was practised in centres. A senior sister went into trance and returned with a message for a small group of us: Baba was asking each one to select one virtue which he would then bestow as a boon. I chose Honesty. Not that I wasn't basically an honest person before but I think my faith in the "blessing" strengthened the virtue in me. When, therefore, the trajectory of my critical thinking led me to your position the result was my departure. I had the courage to differ in opinion on some basic policies of service. I remember doing so once in a six page letter which the Senior Sister in charge of the zone later told me she "never received" and that the film "Ghandi" (it was in 1982) would allay my fears and concerns about cultural differences in presenting the knowledge in a plural society etc. What I did not have the courage for (nor thought of) doing was to address such senior sisters in a confrontational manner over matters I disagreed with. As a centre-niwasi I was ever mindful of Who was in charge through his instruments. Generally, I suppressed my anger and disagreements. Nevertheless, when the time came for me to leave I discussed it with the sisters in charge [I've shared that experience on this site]. I can't tell you what to do in your case because that depends on you and the quality of your personal relations with the people in charge. I think, though, that for someone who has dedicated one's life, energy and youth (presumably) to the organization you need to understand from them how their doctrine differs from a splinter group that seems legitimate to its members globally - especially if you have seriously considered the content of PBK doctrine and think there are fair questions to be answered.

On the question of leaving, I'd like to think that even though they may feel (fearfully) faithful or duty-bound to dissuade you from doing so, in their heart of hearts they will respect you for your honesty in speaking your truth clearly and firmly. And if they are truly of God they will release you with sincere blessings and best wishes. Otherwise, they are not genuine.

About the monetary donations: it doesn't make sense contributing to a movement or cause you don't believe in. I agree with Kevin. There are many ways to give charity under the auspices of an Almighty and Universal God. If the meditation still works for you then maybe you can give that 'head' as charity without the 'tail' of the doctrine - or, in other words, give the A(tma) and B(aba i.e. ABBA, Universal God) but ease down on the controversial C(ycle). If you're able to do this then please share that yukti with me. I'd really like to understand it.

After leaving gyan I returned to reading outside of the murlis. One of the novels I re-read with greater appreciation was Herman Hesse's Siddhartha. Siddhartha met the Buddha, acknowledged his enlightenment but also had the wisdom (buddhi) to understand that he (Siddhartha) had to find his own enlightenment. He experienced his own unique cycle of life. It was a matter of individual experience and faith. That, for me, is one of the greatest values of the xbk site: it provides an opportunity for exploring one's individual path. We might not be strong in re-creating our broken ontologies but that is no easy task and it can take a lifetime. What matters is that there is a listening ear that understands. Welcome again my friend.

Gyaniwasi
_________________
"Those were the days my friend ...."

Guest · Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 6:00 am Post subject:

Dear Babbit,
Hello and welcome to this forum. I appreciate you for the openness and boldness in your expressions. The experience that you have had with the BKs after coming to know about the PBKs has been the experience of most of the thousands of PBKs in India and other places in the world. The reaction of the BKs to any soul who has even heard of the PBKs is similar. There is nothing to feel astonished. In case of the double foreigners the reaction of the BKs towards souls like you may have a veil of royalty on it, but in India the reaction of the BKs towards the PBKs is almost brutal involving even physical and verbal assaults. Such reactions of the BKs towards the PBKs makes the other poor BKs shudder at even thinking about the PBKs. So after coming in contact with PBKs or after becoming a PBK in India one is greeted with a cold or hot reception by BKs, or even total avoidance of any kind of contact with PBKs. Even saying "Omshanti" or smiling or looking at the PBKs is prohibited.

Just as in the beginning of the yagya (BK movement) people of the Sindh province of undivided India used to say that if anyone goes to the BKs then they apply soorma or kaajal (collyrium or soot) to the eyes of the visitors and they come under their influence. In the same way BKs say that anyone coming in contact with the PBKs or who eat their khichdi (an eatable consisting of a mixture of boiled rice, pulses and vegetables) served at their H.Qs in Kampil, Farrukhabad will come under their influence. Actually, it is not the effect of the khichdi or any kind of contact, but the effect of the unique knowledge that is imparted by the Supreme Soul through the advace party (PBKs).

As regards your desire to donate money to the BKs is concerned I do not understand the relation between your views with regards to their behaviour and your desire to donate to them. Both are contradictory.

With regards,
Arjuna

kyra · Joined: 19 Apr 2004 Posts: 66

kyra · Joined: 19 Apr 2004 Posts: 66

Babbit · Joined: 31 Dec 2004 Posts: 8 Location: UK

Wow! Thanks to everyone for their kind and supportive replies. I didn�t expect it, and cannot express how helpful it is. I�m still thinking it all through, but a few quick points:

Gyaniwasi, you really hit a nerve! A good nerve. It made me realise that my questions had arisen because I feel that telling them I am stopping the money and that I won't be coming anymore is the more honest approach, but I just don�t feel strong enough to do it yet. So I have stopped the money, and have a month before they notice it�s not coming in. It will give me time to reflect on what I need to do for me and that perhaps another element to this issue is that I am still looking for their approval � another raw nerve.

You also zeroed in on something causing me distress at the moment � you�re pretty darn perceptive -- the meditation is not working because I feel such an aversion to all things BK. I am hoping that time will heal and I will feel stronger and able to start again.

Kyra, like you, knowing other people feel similar to me and having this forum for support, stimulating debate and some decent humour is a lifeline!

Kikas · Joined: 17 Jan 2005 Posts: 21

Wow, i'm really glad to find such a website, it's like some of you have been saying, good to find that one was not the only one feeling that anger and confusion and that i wasn't crazy by suspecting and not agreeing with most of that nonsense. It's the first time i write in this forum and I only wished to have had seen it on the time i was going through the process of leaving and not knowing if my life ended there... I left a year ago after 5 years.
This website may do a lot for XBKs but I think will do more for the ones in the future that will go trough the same questions and turmoil while still being a bk, it will open their eyes, show them that they are not crazy, they are not bad, there is nothing wrong with them and that there is life outside this matrix and it can be even more wonderful, free and still full with God and Spirituality, but coming from within and with total acceptence of whatever they are. I say this cause there a lot of depression going on in many people in the Bk stuff some of it for years, yeah so much for hapiness.
I dare to say that this forum is God inspired (no ofense), who knows how many it can save from suicide and depression after leaving and being left by something that had become the center of their life and total purpose of existence?
So thanks for those responsible for this website and all the others sharing their sincere experiences and thoughts... i'm dancing!
(sorry for any spelling mistakes english is not my 1st language)