XBK Chat (unofficial archive)

Paul · Joined: 13 Mar 2004 Posts: 72

BKs emphasize "soul consciousness". We are told ad nauseum that we should not look at the body. We should not even think of gender. But, in reality, is this so in the BK movement?

It seems to me, both from personal observation and from what I have been told, that there is differential treatment of black members in the BK movement. I say this, not to be antagonistic or to stir up a hornet's nest, but because it seems to be true and is therefore a cause for concern.

White members are given regard and a relatively smooth ride, in comparison with black members. It is subtle, but definitely there. In some instances, its not subtle at all but there for all to see. Whites are more often taken in to the inner circles, given administrative duties, effusively credited and praised for their contributions and feted royally in Abu. They are also frequently selected to speak on behalf of the BKs at public functions. Some whites have even been put in charge of centers abroad. This rarely happens in the case of blacks.

I have racked my brain to get the answer for this difference in treatment and experience. The possible reasons I came up with may be incomplete, but they include the following:

* It may be a colonial hangover. The British Raj existed for about 150 years in India, and many Indians still see whites as "Sahib".

* Its a natural extension of the irrational Indian obsession with fair skin. Indeed, the sanskrit word for caste - "Varn" - means colour. Generally, the lower castes in India tend to have darker skin. There is also a geographic factor, with the Dravidian South Indians being generally darker than the so called Aryan North Indians. Sindhis (Brahma Baba's people) are generally quite fair.

* BKs say that the deities will be very fair. Hence, some see whites as Sangamyugi deities!

* Some Hindus associate black people with Ravan. They say when Lanka was burning the peoples hair got singed...hence black people.

* For the whites, the BK "trip" is a smooth transference of a feeling of dominion. In other word, as members of the dominant religion (Christianity) and the dominiant race (Caucasian) its easy to transfer that triumphalism to BKdom, which tells them that, as deities, they will rule the planet.

* Being a bit cynical, there could also be a monetary aspect. The whites live in "hard foreign currency" countries. Most of the blacks, on the other hand, come from poor third world countries. Therefore the purchasing and donation power of the whites is significantly more. Hence, the red carpet is rolled out to them in Abu and other places.

One personal anecdote: I attended a center where a black brother would come for Sunday class sometimes. He was always very well turned out in white clothes and was clearly a serious student who also did amrit vela meditation. I, on the other hand, seldom wore white and rarely did amrit vela meditation. Now, because of a job commitment on Sundays, this black brother had to leave the class just after the murli was read. He could not remain to partake in the breakfast that was served to other students after the murli. I have seen where other members also had to leave before the breakfast and they were given a paper bag with food and bhog in it to take. This black brother was never given any food or bhog to take. No one ever made that offer, even as a gesture. From all that I heard about Brahma Baba, he would never have allowed that to happen.

Things like that - apart from being wrong and clearly influenced by colour consciousness - really make one wonder about the claim to being colour blind and so called "soul consciousness".

I have opened up this topic not to be provocative, divisive or accusatory, but, in the interest of fairness, to address a contradiction in BK practice. I welcome responses from others who may also have experiences, insights or observations in this area.

tigresslilly · Joined: 13 Apr 2004 Posts: 5

In response to paul's posting--- Yes, it is true that there is prefrence given to whites among the BKs. Amongs the other ethnic groups, white's have always been accociated with supremecy, wealth, status, and leadership in the Bk world and also the whole world. The deities in golden age with indeed be fair and beautiful and it is accociated with purity..

isabel · Joined: 24 Mar 2004 Posts: 39

I think preference is given to whites -not only over blacks, but also over persons from India in Madhuban. I was told that this was because the 'double foreigners' had to come from so far away, but it made me uncomfortable. It didn't seem right that the mostly white double foreigners should get to sit in the front, in chairs, while the thousands of persons from India were piled on the floor towards the back. I also didn't like that 'the double foreigners' were housed separately from persons from India, that we were able to stay at sacred Maduban while they slept down the hill at Shantivan. It made me especially uncomfortable to think that these people had been told that this was God's will. But like all the uncomfortable feelings I had, I tried to just reason it away... Yet shouldn't everyone have been on the floor, equal before God?

Guest · Posted: Mon May 31, 2004 6:58 am Post subject:

Dear souls,

Omshanti. Brother Paul has presented a well thought-over topic in a nice manner, which should open up the eyes of the so-called administrators of the BK movement towards the practical difficulties that are being faced silently by a section of the Brahmin family.

Although I agree with Paul over the prejudicial treatment given to whites over blacks in the BKs, I would like to add that this is not the doing of ShivBaba or Brahma Baba but of some children who could not become soul conscious to the level that Baba wants us to be. Actually, the prejudicial treatment that is meted out to the black BKs in comparison to the white BKs in foreign countries and in Mt. Abu is not just an overseas problem but also an Indian problem. Even in India, the darker BKs from the southern peninsula of India are given a step motherly treatment when compared to their fairer BK siblings from the north India. This may to some extent be controlled by the factors enumerated by Paul, but basically it is due to the body consciousness that is embedded in the minds of the souls. So one should not worry much about it.

In fact in the Murlis Baba has even addressed this problem by declaring that it is better to be black in the confluence age so that one does not have to face the vicious and sinful vision of the world. There are innumerable murlies in which Baba has enumerated the disadvantages of being fair and of being colour conscious in the confluence age. I can quote some of them as follows:THE IMPORTANCE OF EYES IN PURITY AND THE ECLISPE OF NAME AND BEAUTY.

� In anyone gets entangled in the name and beauty of someone, then Father feels that he is criminalized. That�s why Father says that each person should check his stage. The big and nice maharathis (highest effort makers) should check whether out intellect gets attracted towards anybody�s name and beauty? That body is nice. I should do this. Does such a thought arise in your mind? Baba knows that now nobody is completely civilized. Those who are completely pass with honor i.e. the eight gems, can only be civilized now, not even 108 (souls will be civilized). There should not be even a little distraction. It is very difficult. Very rarely there�s someone like this. Eyes dupe a person to some extent certainly. So drama will not make anyone civilized very soon. One must make a lot of efforts and check himself, whether his eyes dupe him or not? To become the master of the world is a very high target. One must be careful. Children do not reveal the truth even to the Father. They keep committing mistakes at every step. Even if you look someone with a criminal vision, if you commit a mistake then note immediately. Children keep committing 10-20 mistakes everyday until they become mistake proof (i.e. perfect). But nobody reveals the truth. [Mu 23/7/89 Pg-1]

� Each soul is independent. Father has liberated you from the relationship of brother and sister also. Consider yourself brothers. Even then the criminal eye does not end. It keeps on doing its work now all the organs of human beings are criminal. Which is the most criminal organ? Eyes. If the desire for sex is jot fulfilled then people start beating their partners. First of all are the eyes. There�s the story of Soordas also. [Mu 19/7/89 Pg-2]

� It takes time to transform criminal eyes into civil eyes. It�s such a big difference to consider the relationship with the wife as that of Brahmakumar Kumaris, brothers and sisters. It�s very difficult to transform the behavior of brothers and sister. [Mu 9/12/90]

� Human beings possess such a criminal eye. A minister came to meet Baba and said my eyes become criminal. [Mu 20/8/89 Pg-2]

� Some people become lover and beloved just for sex, some get attracted just by the beauty. You know that such obstacles of Maya are created even at the centers. Otherwise always male and female get entangled in the name and beauty of each other. Their Maya is so fierce the mother gets entangled in the name and beauty of another mother, and a spinster gets entangled in the name and beauty of another spinster. Even though one makes efforts, Maya takes them in its grip completely. [Mu 31/8/91]

� Father creates hatred for this old world in your mind. Now all the souls are dark. So how will they get a fair body? Although their skin is fair, but the soul is dark, isn�t it? Those who are fair and handsome are so proud of themselves. Although a person may be dark like a ghost but he says that I want a fair wife. Human beings do not know at all how the soul becomes fair? [Mu 12/7/84]

� We all are spiritual brother, children of one Father. If one remembers this aloukik (unworldly) vision, then the seed of the bodily vision i.e. worldly vision, which creates vices, gets destroyed. When the seed ends them the expanse of the kalpa vriksha (a mythological tree) of various vices ends automatically. Even now many children complain that our eyes become mischievous as our vision becomes dirty. Why does it happen? When Father�s order is that look at the unworldly soul in the worldly body then why do you look at the body? If you say that it�s my habit �I am possessed by the habit or I get under the influence of some or the other kind of pleasure. So it proves that one is not experienced in the pleasure of soul and the Supreme Soul sex lust is the biggest enemy, isn�t it? Children make a lot of efforts, that�s why there�s a story of Soordas too. Father says that �here you need not to remove your eyes�, you have to transform criminal eyes into civil eyes. The hard work is only during the present time. Biggest enemy is the is sex lust. That�s why everyone has been lustful. There should be the sword of knowledge in between � we are the brothers and sisters. [Mu 6/9/84 Pg-2]

� People spread the rumors bout you that they transform people into brothers and sisters. The atmosphere remains pure in this (situation). One does not develop criminal vision. If one develops this vision for jut this birth then one will never develop criminal vision in future it�s not that there (i.e. in the heaven) people consider each other to be brothers and sisters. There people are related just a Maharajas and Maharani�s (Kings and Queens) are related to each other. [Mu 6/9/84]

� When someone is under the influence of an eclipse, the he suffers so much loss. Father knows that rich people become poor. There must be some reason isn�t it? Baba keeps explaining many of them also � �Children, do not get entangled in name and form of each other. That�s why Baba cautions that children, Maya will try a lot to get you entangled. But you must not get entangled. One should not come into body consciousness. You must consider yourself to be a soul and remember Father. [Mu 31/8/91]

� If someone looks at any beautiful lady other than his wife then she will cause attraction immediately. One feels like kissing her, touching her. Eyes dupe the most. If someone is good at singing, if her decoration is god then the eyes will become mischievous immediately. So, when such a lady comes in front of anyone the one should go away from there. If someone looks at someone then he will think that she is very good. Then he will talk to her. He would like to present her some gift or give her something to eat. He will keep thinking about this. [Mu 20/5/71 Pg-1]

� In the world everything is dependant on the dark and fair face. Some people get engaged without seeing the face of the bride. Then, when they look at the face, they say that I did not want such a dark wife. Then there will be quarrel. What should I do with such a wife? I want a beautiful wife. Now you dark soul is engaged to me. This body is old. Although it may be very beautiful are must get a feeling of hatred towards it. As per law everyone is dark because the soul is dark. Those who get entangled in the name and beauty are called male and female monkeys. [Mu 8/9/73 Pg-4]

� Very good children of very good centers also have a criminal eye. [Mu 5/8/84 Pg-3]

On Godly service,

Arjuna

bkry · Joined: 17 Apr 2004 Posts: 113 Location: Malaysia

Once, while I was in Madhuban meditating during amrit vela, I show the sister who asks BKs to sit on the stage (to lead meditation) approaching the blacks and talking to them. They would shake their head and she would move to another. I think I saw 2 or 3 of the blacks shaking their heads before the sister approached a white and he just got up and went onto the stage. Maybe, the blacks have a complex which is not allowing them to participate.
_________________
God's angel.
BK Pari

bkry · Joined: 17 Apr 2004 Posts: 113 Location: Malaysia

Hey Arjuna!
What is this you have quoted, "Those who get entangled in the name and beauty are called male and female monkeys."
It's cute.
_________________
God's angel.
BK Pari

Guest · Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2004 2:21 am Post subject:

Dear bkry,

Omshanti. The sentence that you have quoted is not my invention but a Godly version. In fact in a recent murli through the present medium of ShivBaba, there was a joke in which Baba compared the young couples displaying their love while driving on the motorcycles also as monkeys. Just as monkeys or dogs do not hesitate in displaying their love in public, human beings have also denegrated to their level and do not hesitate in showing off their mortal body and their love for it.

Arjuna

bkry · Joined: 17 Apr 2004 Posts: 113 Location: Malaysia

Hey Arjuna,
I did notice that the murli quotations which you have provided above, do not sound like the sakar murlis which are read in the Brahma Kumaris. I wanted to ask you as to whether God had amended the murlis through using you. Are the above quotations from the amended murlis as interpretated through Virendra Dev Dixit.
_________________
God's angel.
BK Pari

Guest · Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 1:12 am Post subject:

Dear bkry,

Omshanti. The murlis which I have quoted are not amended murlis as stated by you but English translations of the oringinal murlis printed and published by the BKs. In fact it is the BKs who amend the murlis and not the PBKs and this fact is even acknowledged by the BKs who are incharge of the Murli section in Madhuban, Mt. Abu.

Actually, Sakaar murlis are the Godly versions that were spoken through Dada Lekhraj (Brahma Baba) from 1951 to 1968. But out of the 18 years murlis which were narrated, only five years record of the murlis was actually printed or recorded during the time of Brahma Baba. This record of five years murlis is being published by the BKs every five years, after the death of Brahma Baba. Initially the murlis used to be stencilled and since 1990s the murlis are being printed. If you observe the style of publishing murlis in the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s you can find clear differences between all the three periods. And if you compare a particular murli that was published and read in Madhuban (suppose 1.3.1970) and then revised on 1.3.1975 or 1.3.85 or 1.3.1995 you can observe that each time the murli is reprinted for circulation among the BK centres there are many changes in that murli. This fact can be corraborated with the help of practical evidence, which you can verify if you happen to visit any PBK Geetapathshala or ashram.

I have myself seen the original murlis in which there was repeated mention of Farrukhabad, but was later deleted by the BKs in the revised versions fearing an outflow of BKs towards the advance party which has its H.Qs in Farrukhabad, U.P. State, North India.

On Godly service,

Arjuna

bkry · Joined: 17 Apr 2004 Posts: 113 Location: Malaysia

Hey Arjuna,
Can you read and speak Hindi? What does, "jo otey so arjun" mean?
_________________
God's angel.
BK Pari

Guest · Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 2:33 am Post subject:

Dear bkry,

Omshanti. Your querry is related to a story of the Mahabharata epic. In that epic it is mentioned that the Pandava brothers were leading an incognito life for some years, after their Kaurava brothers tried to kill them in a palace fire. But somehow the Pandavas were saved and reached the place called Kampila (now a village in the District Farrukhabad of Uttar Pradesh State of India), which was then a capital of a kingdom called Panchaal. They lived there in an incognito form of Brahmins at the house of a potter.

Once they heard that the king of Panchaal was organizing a swayamvar (a system of marriage where the bride selects the bridegroom herself or on the basis of some competition) in order to marry off his only daughter Draupadi, who was exquisitely beautiful. When the princess did not like any of the princes who had come to seek an alliance a competition was arranged to win the heart of the princess. In that competition there was a small pond of water in the ground and above that pond a fish was hanging in the air and moving in circles. Each competitor had to look at the image of the moving fish in the water below and hit the eye of the fish. This was indeed a tough competition and as expected all the princes, who were present failed in the test. When the Pandava brothers came to know of the competition, they too wanted to try a hand at it. When they were permitted by the King Drupad to try their hands, the Pandavas sent the third brother Arjuna, who was the most famous archer at that time to try his hand and he was successful at hitting the fish's eye in a competition where all other princes, including the Kaurava Princes had failed. Thus he won the heart of Draupadi and took her home as his wife.

This is the background for the proverb "Jo otey so arjun", i.e. the persons who comes forward to take up a challenge and succeeds in it, is called Arjun. This proverb is referred to many a times by Baba in murlies to encourage children to make efforts like Arjuna in the field of spiritualism and win the world kingdom.

On Godly service,

Arjuna

bkry · Joined: 17 Apr 2004 Posts: 113 Location: Malaysia

Guest · Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 6:04 am Post subject:

For every religeous organisation, there is always the difference between the beliefs it has and the things it puts to practice. Only a handful really grasp the meaning of those teachings and have the qualities of putting it to practice. Racism is a cause for concern, always and everywhere. But it is something that is deeply rooted in the world - even black tribes back in Africa can be very hostile to one another (i.e. look at all those civil wars there). The bkwsu is certainly not the "perfect" organisation, since its members and leaders are neither perfect people.

I think its unfair to generalise that white people get high postitions all the time. To start off, there are way less black people in the movement. Secondly, racially, the Indians are regarded to belong to the white race, but I think when you mention the whites that you mean Australians, Americans en Europeans (in fact, they're all Europeans in origin Smile

). Anyway, since the movement is from India and almost all BKs are Indian, they are the ones who have the most "high" positions. In effect, those high positions mean that you don't have an normal income and depend entirely on the BKWSU - not something that everyone can do (i.e. sustaining your family).

IMHO, any organisation which has the proportions of the bkwsu, would be suffering the same defects regardless how noble its cause is. Likewise, you couldn't possibly step towards a good christian and ask him an explanation about all those millions of people that have been killed in the name of his god.

God bless America! ( Rolling Eyes

)

bkry · Joined: 17 Apr 2004 Posts: 113 Location: Malaysia

I was told that it was the blacks (in Africa) themselves who had sold the poorer blacks to the whites (which had then lead to slavery of the Blacks). I was also told that the Blacks in Africa have been sending Indians out of Africa since 1950s. I was told that the Blacks in Africa are quite arrogant in their ways. I have not met them and so I am not saying this from experience. This being so, I do not think that there is any need to feel pity for Blacks. Actually, we should not pity. We should have mercy and should shower others with love and all the other divine virtues and powers. This is what God has told BKs (and PBKs) to do.

I would say that the Jews had been treated more badly than the Blacks. The Blacks were only treated badly from the near past. The Jews have been treated badly from the beginning of the Copper Age. At the beginning of the Copper Age, the deity souls saw them as being �inferior� and were not happy that they were not flowing along with their religious beliefs and were, instead, trying to establish their own religious believes. Abraham and his followers (subsequently named as Jews) went away in search of their Promised Land. Then, in subsequent births, deity souls (in ordinary births), began to enslave the Jews and make them build buildings etc for them under the influence of memories of how the Jews had helped to create a heavenly world (in the corporeal sense) for the deities, at the beginning of the Golden Age. Written history tells us of how the Jews were treated badly thereafter, especially by Hitler etc. But the Jews are a gifted group and so USA has flourished because of their presence in USA. It is the Jews who should be used by the Brahma Kumaris, not the Blacks. The Jews would be able to give greater help to the Brahma Kumaris.
_________________
God's angel.
BK Pari

tigresslilly · Joined: 13 Apr 2004 Posts: 5

Sister, i am shocked at your views about black folks. As it is the whole world degrades them and if a knowledgeable soul see them as inferior than what's the purpose of all this knowledge. They are also from the human family, are Baba's children, and therefore our brothers and sisters. Baba never points jews, black, white etc. when he talks to us through the murli, than why do we children divide the world into so many pieces. Lets take away all those thoughts and get united under one God our father.