XBK Chat (unofficial archive)

Atma · Joined: 26 Feb 2004 Posts: 98

In case you are wondering what this topic is all about (you may think that the subject heading is contradictory) let me say this: even if, like me, you have doubts about "the knowledge" or outright disbelieve it, assume, for the sake of this topic, that you believe all of the knowledge to be completely true. I intend to use this topic to discuss / show how - even assuming it is true - there are several ethical, philosophical, humanistic questions and "objections" which can be raised....disturbing and troubling issues.

More on this is my next post.

bkry · Joined: 17 Apr 2004 Posts: 113 Location: Malaysia

Hey Atma,
Where is your next post on this? It is a long wait.
_________________
God's angel.
BK Pari

Atma · Joined: 26 Feb 2004 Posts: 98

Bkry, I have not forgotten, but thanks for the reminder anyway Smile

I have been pressed for time, but I will make the post as soon as I can. In the meanwhile, if you and other members want to hazard a guess about what the various 'concerns' are, be my guest. When I post, I will let you know if your guess is on the mark Smile

bkry · Joined: 17 Apr 2004 Posts: 113 Location: Malaysia

OK Atma. One guess is that, before coming to the Brahma Kumaris, the soul has been conditioned with bhakti theories. These theories will keep emerging to interfere.
This is my first guess.
_________________
God's angel.
BK Pari

hanuman · Joined: 23 Jun 2004 Posts: 174

Atma,

Your topic is a very important topic.
Why? Though the languages of silence and gyan are universal, these have to be inculcated by humans one in a million of whom are in their last incarnations of 84 births. Then there are recently arrived souls on the Earth Stage to whom Kalyug is still paradise.
Focusing on the gyani souls, the teachings can be inculcated in a humanistic manner, i.e. with a high social IQ also called EQ. The other ways of inculcation are a non-humanistic way and an approach that is between humanistic and non-humanistic.
A BK who is humanistic in his or her inculcation of gyan will be malleable and ductile as gold. He or she will not abuse gyan or use gyan to take advantage of others. He or she will interact with the opposite sex within lokik and alokik principles.
If for instance a sister is injured and there are no other sisters around, a humanistic gyani brother will help the sister, even though he will have to hold her hands. Once when I visited Madhuban, we went to one of the mountain areas for a picnic. A sister was about to slip and I was the only person close by. I extended my hand and firmly held hers as she held mine so that she would not fall down the incline. A male BK literally interpreting gyan would try to try to find a sister to assist the other sister. Or he may remember SB and ask the sister to remember SB.
Once in the karate dojo, a young lady during an exercise stumped he foot and was about to fall forward. I reached out and she fell into my arms. She subsquently stated that she had a crush on me. It did not matter. I saved her from a seroius injury. A non-humanistic approach would have allowed me to let the young lady fall and state that it was her karmaic accounts.
The degree of integration of a humanistic approach to inculcating gyan always, I have found to be dependent on the closeness of the gyani soul to SB. It is, however, always a delicate situation, since our stages can vary like the mercury in a barometer or thermometer.
_________________
Om Shanti,
To my brothers and sisters.

Love to you all,
Errol bhai

hanuman · Joined: 23 Jun 2004 Posts: 174

I should have defined EQ. It was developed to measure the emotional levels of individuals. EQ is emotional quotient.
Humanistic persons tend to have high EQs. Those who lack understanding or are not emphatetic are considered to have low EQ. For example, a BK is unable to attend the morning class beause they are required to leave earlier for their lokik work. They attend classes on weekends and visit the center at lunch time for mid-day meditation. The sister in charge considers the BK to be a bad influence on the other BKs.
After I returned to Guyana in 1986, I was appointed as a veterinary officer and assigned to the Georgetown Zoo due to my special training and interests in zoological medicine. I was offered the chance to live at the center. I found the living conditions for both brothers and sisters to be unsuitable for me. My lokik family also wanted to see me. I was out of the country for nine years.
I could not disconnect myself from my lokik friends and family. I moved into my lokik parents' home and they were happy to see me.
For almost a decade, there was an epidemic of heavy metal poisoning in Guyana. The government was supressing all information on the poisoning. Many people and animals had died of the poisoning. There was a terrorist act of poisoning at the Zoo.
I conducted a robust scientific investigation of the poisoning. The government of Guyana was forced by my investigation to publish in their state run news paper an article on the epidemic in the country. I was black listed and could not leave the country for almost four years. Agents of the Guyana Secret Service monitored all of my activities, including the intercepting of my mail and telephone calls. There was an assassination attempt against me.
Since I studied in the US, I was suspected of being an agent for the CIA by the government of Guyana. I was able to diagnose my own case of poisoning, which by forensic analysis was an assassination attempt. I was able to treat myself at home, under the supervision of a local physician and a BK physician who is a humanistic soul. The government was making plans to send me to Cuba for treatment. I refused their offer based on concerns for my personal security and for medical reasons. Dissidents sent to Cuba were not known to return alive. I was very busy even during my sisck leave, assisting the government to solve the epidemic problem.
For my own personal security, I was unable to attend the morning classes. I explained the gravity of my situation as best as I could to the senior sisters incharge of the center. They thought I was making up a story for my own ego.
Once when I attended a mid-day meditation session, the sister in charge, also a physician angrily accused me of influencing the other students who were not attending the morning classes. There I was being angrily accused by a BK sister, as I was recovering from one of the most deadly toxic agents. To this day, no senior BK has ever inquired into my health status. Nor did any ever congratulated me for my contributions in preventing a national disaster. The congratulation part never hurt. I as a veterinarian was performing my lokik duties in remembrance of God. I was not looking to become BK POPULARITY.
Ten years after the incident, I was undergoing postgraduate studies at the Royal Veterinary College, University of London and the London Zoo. I was nominated to be a Scientific Fellow of the Zoological Society of London, for my accomplishments in zoological medicine, including my work at the Guyana Zoo. A lokik institution had appreciated the work I did in saving the lives of animals and people, while my brothers and sisiters in gyan thought my efforts in veterinary medicine were ego trips directed by maya.
I WOULD ALLOW MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS TO DETERMINE WHETHER THE SISTER IN CHARGE AT THE GUYANA CENTER DEMONSTRATED ANY HIGH LEVEL OF EQ. Laughing

_________________
Om Shanti,
To my brothers and sisters.

Love to you all,
Errol bhai

zhukov · Joined: 10 Apr 2004 Posts: 86

Can I ask...why there is such a (seemingly) desperate emphasis in the BKs on attendance of the early-morning classes??

That if you can't make it to those then suddenly you're not in their 'picture' anymore Question

I hope that wasn't too vague a description!

Guest · Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 12:59 pm Post subject:

hanuman, you certainly have had many adventures in your life Shocked

viswa · Joined: 08 Jul 2004 Posts: 4

":For my own personal security, I was unable to attend the morning classes. I explained the gravity of my situation as best as I could to the senior sisters incharge of the center. They thought I was making up a story for my own ego.
Once when I attended a mid-day meditation session, the sister in charge, also a physician angrily accused me of influencing the other students who were not attending the morning classes. "

"Can I ask...why there is such a (seemingly) desperate emphasis in the BKs on attendance of the early-morning classes??

That if you can't make it to those then suddenly you're not in their 'picture' anymore"

Hi,

I have a very different story to tell. When a friend of mine is unable to attend the morning classes, the sister in charge of the centre will give the printout of the muralis ( even for one week)!!

hanuman · Joined: 23 Jun 2004 Posts: 174

Viswa,

Consider yourself and other gyanis at your center to be very fortunate. You teacher must be a true kumari.

Zukov,

There is a maya among teachers. Their concerns for a student's attendance for the morning class can be selfish. If a senior visits the center and observes a low attendance at the morning classes, then the teacher has to explain to the senior. Sometimes, attendance at the morning classes is interpreted to be an index of the stage of the teacher(s) in charge of the center.

Kevin,

I regard my adventures as a chance to give the message to those who would otherwise not be able to get it.
Some BKs try tp label me as an ego tripper. To that I have always said fine. To those who throw such stones at me I take the stones and by alchemy, convert them into precious minerals.
The chances to build kingdoms for many incarnations are not in the centers. The souls who need the knowledge are not in the center.
Many BKs make the mistake of living in their heads and think that not paying attention to the other parts of them is a great self-service.
_________________
Om Shanti,
To my brothers and sisters.

Love to you all,
Errol bhai

viswa · Joined: 08 Jul 2004 Posts: 4

I don't think it is because the teacher is a true kumari but instead the person is valued by her because of his wealth and social position. The treatment depends on whom it is extended to.

hanuman · Joined: 23 Jun 2004 Posts: 174

Viswa,

I do agree with your reasoning.
It would be great if the teacher treated all BK who were absent in the way she treated the person with lokik wealth.
It is possible that the teacher thought she was being fair.
Initially I was under the impression that the teacher treated every one equally.
Please accept my apologies for my initial response to you.
I'll withdraw it.
The teacher is not fair person.
_________________
Om Shanti,
To my brothers and sisters.

Love to you all,
Errol bhai

Atma · Joined: 26 Feb 2004 Posts: 98

Wow! Talk about a delay in following up. I started this topic about 10 months ago...and just left it hanging. Sincere apologies for that. It must have slipped through the cracks I guess. Anyway, better late than never right?

The responses so far have not addressed what I had in mind. Not surprising, since I did not elucidate what the "concerns" about the knowledge are.....even if it (ie the knowledge) is assumed to be true. So let me do that now. Note: I do not personally believe the knowledge to be true - not in its totality anyway. However, for the sake of this post and discussion, let's assume that the knowledge is100% true. On that assumption, could there still be valid "concerns" or "objections" to it? I strongly feel yes there can be. And frankly, I am surprised that these issues have not been addressed by XBKs, or even by practicing BKs.

Time does not permit a lengthy disquisition on the "concerns". So, for now, I will mention some of them briefly. Depending on the response and interest, I can return to this topic and expand on the "concerns". Again, remember that we are assuming the knowledge to be completely true. Here we go:

The 5000 years cycle, which repeats eternally and identically. We are told, simplisticaly, that (the first) half is happiness and (the second) half is sorrow. We are told that nothing can ever be changed. We are told that souls can never gain permanent liberation from this cycle. What's this? Some kind of sick joke? What's the point? Whose entertainment is this crazy merry go round? To further perplex us, there is no original cause or trigger for the cycle. We have to accept that it has aways been and will ever be so.

The extremely discriminatory and selective nature of who goes to heaven. The Golden Age starts off with just 900,000 people. I think it was Paul who pointed out that that figure represents less than one tenth of one percent of the world's Hindu population, not to mention the souls of other religions. This - together with the "numberwise" concept and the stress on "status" - give a castist bad taste to the whole scheme.

What does the above mentioned selectivity say about the nature of the BK God? I think it shows a callous disregard and unfeeling attitude towards the great majority of the world's population. Whatever happened to that great expression: "All are equal before God"? Apparently, some are "more equal than others". The unlucky ones - the overwhelming majority of human beings on this planet - are relegated to inferior, impure and "stepchildren" status....like so much detritus. What does this say about the BK / Hindu outlook? It is certainly not humanistic and compassionate.

I can understand that when people initially get involved with the BKs, and are "high" or "intoxicated", they are just into experiencing that "happiness" and so they suspend their critical faculties. However, as most of us know and would admit, that "intoxication" does not last forever. It eventually wears off...sooner or later. The very fact that is does wear off shows that, like a drug, it may have been artificially / falsely induced in the first place. Anyway, when BK followers come down from that high and start to think more soberly, don't these things trouble them? Don't the see the inherent absurdity of the cyclic scheme? Don't they see the glaring injustice to their fellow human beings? Don't they see how the belief system inhumanely undervalues their fellow human beings, who may not be "Brahmins"? Does this not trouble them? Does it never bother them? How can one's outlook be truly brotherly when one is always assigning people to a higher or lower place on a totem pole?

I have a theory, and here I don't mean to upset anyone...just being frank, that's all. I think that because of the deep seated place of caste in Hindu history, culture, religion and psyche, Hindus are, for the most part, quite comfortable with a world view of human INequality. It has become ingrained in their nature. So much so, that they accept the inherent unfairness and inhumanity of the scheme as laid out in the knowledge. It doesn't trouble them in the least. They don't give it a second thought. They don't bat an eye.

In fact, what I have picked up when I used to attend some RY centres is this: There are some Hindus who are very weak followers. Their attendance is irregular and sporadic. They may not wake up and do early morning meditation. The may not follow all the other precepts fully. However, in spite of that complacency, they have an inner acceptance of the path....even a smugness about it. And I think I know what thinking lies behind that smugness. It is this: "No matter what the absurdities are in this path, no matter what the contradictions and injustices are, this is OUR thing. Sat Yug, the cycle, Lakshmi, Narayan, Krishna, Radha, Bharat, etc etc, are HINDU things. They are the very fabric of the Hindu tapestry. So the knowledge is comfirming and stregthening MY identity and heritage as a Hindu, and thats all that I really care about. All others be damned".

This is what Westerners - for all their intellect - will never fully perceive and feel. They can accept knowledge intellectually, but they can never feel that it validates their inner being, because they are not Hindu. Do I see a knee jerk reaction coming? For Christ sake, forget about "soul consciousness" and all that "I-was- a-Hindu-in-all / most-of-my-prior-births" B.S. The only thing that matters is what you are now - in THIS present birth. Know yourself.

Guest · Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 8:01 am Post subject:

Dear Atma,
Omshanti. After going through all your concerns about equality before God, I would like to say that "the God of BKs" as you say, has addressed your concern also in one of the Avyakta Vanis (narrated through BK Gulzar Dadi). He has many a times said that all the children want to enjoy equal fruits in the Golden Age and Silver Age, everyone wants to become Lakshmi Narayan, nobody wants to become Ram Sita or achieve a lower post. But when it comes to making efforts, everyone does not make the highest grade of efforts equally.

It must be well known to everyone by now that PBKIVV or AIVV is a school or University. In the worldly schools or Universities also students are ranked numberwise. So in this spiritual school also the Godly students are ranked numberwise. But the difference is that we do not get any report-cards for our performance. There will not be any function at the end of the 5000 years old cycle to declare the numbers or ranks of each soul. Each soul will realize its number itself. Each soul will also realize the number or rank of other souls by itself and give them the due respect through their thoughts, speech and actions in the confluence age. And when the Golden and Silver ages begin all the souls will enjoy the rewards or fruits, as per the efforts made by them in the Confluence Age. And this does not mean that only the souls from India or the souls belonging to Hinduism will enjoy the benefits. Any soul from any part of the world can reap the benefits, provided he/she makes commensurate efforts.With regards,
Arjuna

uddhava · Joined: 20 Jan 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Paramdham

Dear Atma,

Yes I agree with your concern expressed above. If I remember correctly, the highest souls have 84 lives while the lowest have only one and only enter at the the tail end of the drama just in time for destruction. It is bad enough that there is horrendous suffering in the world, but it is worse that certain souls are destined to experence this over and over again and there is nothing they can do about it. Of course there are different kinds of suffering in the world, and perhaps a certain amount of suffering is necessary, but then there are some kinds of suffering that is just sickening and makes me think - is there really a need for this, what purpose does this serve? Unlike the Abrahamic God, Shiv Baba does not create the souls and the world, so maybe he can say look, this wasn't my idea Laughing

This allows God to kind of disown awkward questions such as why is it 900,000 souls and not some other number, who decided that souls have to pass some kind of exam, and who wrote the exam paper?

OK so how we come to be here is a mystery - I don't say that this in itself is necessarily a problem in the sense that BKWSU fails to answer this. But the point is that when it comes to the suffering that is entailed in being here, BKWSU does not really have any better answers than the other religions.

There is a similar aspect about destruction. There is the Old Testament story about Noah and the Ark, where all life on earth is destroyed except the few saved by Noah at God's direction. Nowadays the question is asked what about little children and animals who are 'destroyed' - do they deserve to suffer in this way? No matter what the child has done in his previous life, he doesn't have the intellectual capacity to understand what is happening now. OK so in BKWSU God is not directly responsible for destruction as he is in the story of Noah. However he is in some sense a party to it, and this misery for some is somehow necessary so that others, the lucky few, can enjoy the golden age.

I agree that there may be a caste issue in BKWSU but this is difficult for non-Indians to penetrate because I think the Indian BKs would be very cautious about discussing this in the presence if non-Indians for fear of giving the wrong / right idea. Laughing

I think that for some Hindu schools, the caste is attached to the jiva, the worldly / physical role, and therefore a soul can have one caste in this life and be reborn into a different caste in the next life. In BKWSU iit seems that the caste applies to the soul itself, the atman, and this means that a brahmin is always reborn as a brahmin. Needless to say that as a westerner I have difficulties with the concept of caste, in fact I don't even understand the concept of 'royalty'. Rolling Eyes