XBK Chat (unofficial archive)

CGW · Joined: 26 Mar 2004 Posts: 1

I was curious about this topic and did quite a bit of research on the subject.

I even contacted one organization in the UK that specializes in Cult research and de-programming (for lack of better words) of individuals who became involved in cults. Their response to me:

Brahma Kumaris have been mentioned to them before, however they have never been asked to "work" with any ex-members.

While the BKs do exhibit some similiarities to what can be considered cult-like activity, I would warn anyone reading this post, to be careful because almost any organization can fall under the categorization of cult depending on who is handing out the label--from Christianity to the local chapter of boy scouts.

I have found them to be quite different in a few major categories.

1) never been approached for money
2) never been made to feel less or worse because i wasn't subserviant/following group/organizational idea's
3) haven't been subjected to sleep deprevation techniques!

Of course, ultimatley you will have to make the decision on the BKs yourself, which is the bain of any real cult!

Hope that helps.

Cheers

Chris

mitra · Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2004 1:14 am Post subject:

There is no difference for brothers and sisters. Razz

Every body has got the same time. Very Happy

_________________
OH! I have miles and miles to go before I become PERFECT !

bkry · Joined: 17 Apr 2004 Posts: 113 Location: Malaysia

If one considers what God has said in His murlis about what it would be like at the end, it would seem like as if the Brahma Kumaris would be an accepted world-wide activity at the end. Currently, the Brahma Kumaris is not like this and so the question arises as to whether it is a cult or not.

Currently, it may be correct to say that the Brahma Kumaris has cult practices at the corporeal level even though at the subtle level, the Brahma Kumaris is not a cult. In fact, considering what the Brahma Kumaris do at subtle level etc, it may be said that the Brahma Kumaris is not a cult practice.

To understand why the Brahma Kumaris is said to have cult practices at corporeal level, let us first look at the meaning of the word “cult”. According to the Oxford dictionary, the meaning of “cult” is (1) system of religious worship (2) devotion to a person (especially a single deity) or practice … (3) (group of persons devoted to a) popular fashion or craze …

If one considers the meaning of cult to what is happening in the Brahma Kumaris, one might say that a few instances do make it seem like as if it is involved with cult practices. For example, the system has incorporated Kaliyug religious practices and some BKs practice this like a “system of religious worship”. The teachings of the Brahma Kumaris do not teach this but the sanskaras (religious traits) of some souls make them practice this within the Brahma Kumaris. To this extent it can be said to be a cult. However, this is supposed to be just a temporary practice which one is supposed to use temporarily until one is able to completely throw all such practices out. So based on this, the Brahma Kumaris cannot be said to be a cult. As long as those who come into the Brahma Kumaris are from the path of bhakti, this will continue because new BKs need time to adjust to a new life-style where no cult practices are practiced. People are used to cult practices in the Kaliyug world and it might be impossible for them to completely throw out old sanskaras for an entirely new one. Most people, in the Kaliyug world, try to adopt and adjust whatever they are learning to the life-style that they are leading. Thus, in the Brahma Kumaris, they would be comfortable if they were allowed to continue practicing some of the cult practices while they make effort to become divine / perfect. However, with time, many of them get glued to these imported Kaliyug cultures and they begin to believe that these practices are part of gyan itself and they begin to preach these practices to others as gyan / shrimat. Others say that it is only a system but it would seem that they are as attached to it as they are to gyan. Others have fear of not following these practices to the dot, just as they have such fears in the Hindu practices. Many BKs consider not following such practices as not following shrimat. Such ideas and practices are actually “cult” practices and not gyan. A lot of times, these devotional practices are enforced by BKs because of their devotional sanskaras. For example, washing the hair on every Thursday before offering bhog is such a devotional practice within the Brahma Kumaris. According to the Oxford dictionary, “devotion” means “deep, strong love”. In relation to God, devotion is deep, strong love for God. In the Kaliyug world, people and deities are referred to as God. But this is not how it is where the Brahma Kumaris is concerned. Thus, the Brahma Kumaris cannot fall into the category of “cult” based on this. However, the souls’ devotion / love for God has made some BKs accept imported cultural practices as gyan in an attempt to express their love and respect for God as they do in the Kaliyug world. It becomes similar to Kaliyug cult practices and so maybe, based on this it is true to say that at corporeal level, to this extent, the Brahma Kumaris include cult practices and thus can be said to be a partial cult organization. If the Brahma Kumaris accepted these practices as just practices done in the passing until they are complete thrown out, then the Brahma Kumaris cannot be said to be involved with cult practices but considering that most BKs’ view is that these practices are not something that is being done in the passing, it could be said that the Brahma Kumaris include cult practices at corporeal level.

To understand what is gyan and what is imported Kaliyug practices, let us consider the practice of offering bhog to God. The Kaliyug Sindhis have the practice of putting a little of all cooked food in small containers and they will put this on the altar as an offering to god before eating their food. This practice has been imported as part of offering bhog to God on Thursdays. This is practiced like gyan by BKs. This is strictly adhered to. When bhog is offered, nothing should be out of place and this is how it is where worship is concerned in Hinduism. Actually the gyan involved in offering bhog is that though our good stage the "light energies of the food" can be transformed into a "higher level light energy" and this in turn will help us when we eat it. But the putting of food on small trays etc is not gyan and it does not give any spiritual benefit. But bhakti sanskaras make some souls make it seem like as if it does.
Further, I would say that turning towards the corporeal medium, who is being used by God, is also a cult practice.
However, true BKs are basically involved with the subtle region. They are sending out vibrations to help all souls all over the world and they are making effort to become divine and perfect. They are also making effort to maintain their link to God who is not of the corporeal world. All this cannot be said to be cult practices. This is why I said "at subtle level" the Brahma Kumaris is not a cult but at corporeal level there are cult practices within the Brahma Kumaris.
_________________
God's angel.
BK Pari

ifegenia · Joined: 12 Apr 2004 Posts: 17

Cults have been defined as "groups that often exploit members psychologically and/or financially, typically by making members comply with leadership�s demands through certain types of psychological manipulation, popularly called mind control, and through the inculcation of deep-seated anxious dependency on the group and its leaders." (Chambers, Langone, Dole, Grice, "The Group Psychological Abuse Scale: A Measure of the Varieties of Cultic Abuse," Cultic Studies Journal, Vol. 11, No.1, 1994, page 105)

The term "mind control," as used above, is very important in understanding what a cult is. Psychologist Robert Lifton identified eight characteristics of mind control, and these are helpful in determining whether or not a group fits the mold of a cult. They are explained below.

Milieu Control - Cults seek control over the members' flow of information and social interaction.
Examples: Sandy is ordered or strongly urged to read only those materials that are produced or sanctioned by the group. Or Steven is urged not to go home for Christmas because there's too much work to do for God at the group's facility, and because his family isn't part of the "true way" and could taint him.

Mystical Manipulation - This involves attributing supernatural influences where they are not present or arranging things to appear miraculous. This is enhanced by the milieu control because other ideas -- ideas that could call into question what seems supernatural -- are absent. Not only that, but because the member is talking only to others in the cult, the supposed miraculous is not only unquestioned, but even praised.
Example: Angela leaves a group and has an auto accident. At the next service Pastor Thomas announces to the congregation that this was God's punishment for Angela's leaving.

Demand for Purity - Unreasonable rules and unreachable standards are imposed upon the member. The world is depicted as black and white with little room for personal decisions based on trained conscience. The individual is more willing to submit to this because outsiders that might question such standards are absent due to the milieu control, and the mystical manipulation makes the group seem to have proof for the validity of its guidelines. Example: Janet is awakened at 3 a.m. to meditate, and when she protests, she is asked, "What's more important; God or sleep?"

Cult of Confession - Sins or wrongdoings, as defined by the group, are to be confessed immediately and thoroughly even though they may be, in reality, quite trivial. An environment of confession is set up by the unreasonable demand for purity.
Example: After several hours of intense guilt, James confesses to his pastor that he had angry feelings toward his group leader and is required to ask forgiveness before the entire congregation.
The Sacred Science - The teachings of the group are viewed as the ultimate, unwavering truth. It is too sacred to be called into question, and those who do are branded as "heretics," "reprobates," "worldly," etc. Mystical manipulation is often an important step in deceiving the member into seeing the doctrine as sacred.
Example: Dan�s guru claims his methods are the fastest (sometimes he says the only) way to achieve enlightenment.

Loading the Language - Lifton calls these "thought-terminating clich�s." They are catch phrases loaded with connotation used to stop critical thinking. If an argument is made against the teachings of the group, it and the person who said it may be labeled so that the group members don't consider the merit of the argument.
Example: Everyone who leaves Jerry's group is referred to as a "fall-away," and their criticisms against the group are never addressed.

Doctrine Over Person - This characteristic might also be called "Sacred Science" Over Person because that is the doctrine to which it refers. The group's doctrine is always preferred even if it contradicts personal experience or factual history. The individual is only valued in so far as they conform to the doctrine of the group.
Examples: Jim is in a church that teaches that anyone who isn't a member of their congregation is not a true Christian. At work he meets Amanda who is a very devout Christian and seems to be well-founded in her theology, and she seems to live out what she speaks. Still, he doesn't date her because he knows she can't be a true believer if she doesn't attend his church. Or, Karen's group teaches its members that pain is only an illusion so even though she feels as if she has a headache, she knows that she really doesn't.

Dispensing of Existence - The cult decides who has the right to exist. This can be literal, but it is generally figurative. Outsiders are considered unenlightened or evil and so they can and should be ignored and, sometimes, even mistreated. The sacred science viewpoint helps make it more acceptable to treat people in this manner because the sacred teachings of the group advocate this view.
Examples: Ronald refuses to spend time with any of his old friends because they are evil. When he does talk to them he will only talk about the group and is quick to remind them that they will be judged. Or, Brandy tells her family not to contact her anymore, claiming they have been cruel and now refuse to own up to that mistreatment. She didn't believe them to be cruel until the group influenced her to cut them off.

In short, a cult is an organization that uses these methods to recruit, control, manipulate, and abuse individuals.

It is important to note that not every cult uses all of these techniques; sometimes only a few are masterfully executed to manipulate and unduly influence members.

http://wellspringretreat.org/families/define.html

Using the above criteria, I would conclude that the Brahma Kumaris could fall into the category of a "cult."

bkry · Joined: 17 Apr 2004 Posts: 113 Location: Malaysia

All the above views are views formed by whites / Christians aren't they? If I was not in gyan, and this issue had cropped up, I may have got very angry that many Hindu practices are termed as cult by Christians / whites because they are aren't they. There are Hindus who are not happy about this. But I am a BK now and so I have to learn how to maintain my peaceful state no matter what I am told.
_________________
God's angel.
BK Pari

ifegenia · Joined: 12 Apr 2004 Posts: 17

"Sweetest" Bkry:

All of the criteria described in my previous post about cults can be applied to Hindu based groups as well as christian or any other group. There is nothing particulary christian about each marker.

Below you will see Steve Hasson's BITE model which has no reference at all to christianity. Perhaps you will find it easier to comprehend without the references which seem to somehow distract you from the real issues.

Destructive mind control can be understood in terms of four basic components, which form the acronym BITE:

I.

Behavior Control

II.

Information Control

III.

Thought Control

IV.

Emotional Control

It is important to understand that destructive mind control can be determined when the overall effect of these four components promotes dependency and obedience to some leader or cause. It is not necessary for every single item on the list to be present. Mind controlled cult members can live in their own apartments, have nine-to-five jobs, be married with children, and still be unable to think for themselves and act independently.

I. Behavior Control

1. Regulation of individual's physical reality

a. Where, how and with whom the member lives and associates with
b. What clothes, colors, hairstyles the person wears
c. What food the person eats, drinks, adopts, and rejects
d. How much sleep the person is able to have
e. Financial dependence
f. Little or no time spent on leisure, entertainment, vacations

2. Major time commitment required for indoctrination sessions and group rituals

3. Need to ask permission for major decisions

4. Need to report thoughts, feelings and activities to superiors

5. Rewards and punishments (behavior modification techniques- positive and negative).

6. Individualism discouraged; group think prevails

7. Rigid rules and regulations

8. Need for obedience and dependency
II. Information Control

1. Use of deception

a. Deliberately holding back information
b. Distorting information to make it acceptable
c. Outright lying

2. Access to non-cult sources of information minimized or discouraged

a. Books, articles, newspapers, magazines, TV, radio
b. Critical information
c. Former members
d. Keep members so busy they don't have time to think

3. Compartmentalization of information; Outsider vs. Insider doctrines

a. Information is not freely accessible
b. Information varies at different levels and missions within pyramid
c. Leadership decides who "needs to know" what

4. Spying on other members is encouraged

a. Pairing up with "buddy" system to monitor and control
b. Reporting deviant thoughts, feelings, and actions to leadership

5. Extensive use of cult generated information and propaganda

a. Newsletters, magazines, journals, audio tapes, videotapes, etc.
b. Misquotations, statements taken out of context from non-cult sources

6. Unethical use of confession

a. Information about "sins" used to abolish identity boundaries
b. Past "sins" used to manipulate and control; no forgiveness or absolution

III. Thought Control

1. Need to internalize the group's doctrine as "Truth"

a. Map = Reality
b. Black and White thinking
c. Good vs. evil
d. Us vs. them (inside vs. outside)

2. Adopt "loaded" language (characterized by "thought-terminating clich�s"). Words are the tools we use to think with. These "special" words constrict rather than expand understanding. They function to reduce complexities of experience into trite, platitudinous "buzz words".

3. Only "good" and "proper" thoughts are encouraged.

4. Thought-stopping techniques (to shut down "reality testing" by stopping "negative" thoughts and allowing only "good" thoughts); rejection of rational analysis, critical thinking, constructive criticism.

a. Denial, rationalization, justification, wishful thinking
b. Chanting
c. Meditating
d. Praying
e. Speaking in "tongues"
f. Singing or humming

5. No critical questions about leader, doctrine, or policy seen as legitimate

6. No alternative belief systems viewed as legitimate, good, or useful
IV. Emotional Control

1. Manipulate and narrow the range of a person's feelings.

2. Make the person feel like if there are ever any problems it is always their fault, never the leader's or the group's.

3. Excessive use of guilt

a. Identity guilt

1. Who you are (not living up to your potential)
2. Your family
3. Your past
4. Your affiliations
5. Your thoughts, feelings, actions

b. Social guilt
c. Historical guilt

4. Excessive use of fear

a. Fear of thinking independently
b. Fear of the "outside" world
c. Fear of enemies
d. Fear of losing one's "salvation"
e. Fear of leaving the group or being shunned by group
f. Fear of disapproval

5. Extremes of emotional highs and lows.

6. Ritual and often public confession of "sins".

7. Phobia indoctrination : programming of irrational fears of ever leaving the group or even questioning the leader's authority. The person under mind control cannot visualize a positive, fulfilled future without being in the group.

a. No happiness or fulfillment "outside"of the group
b. Terrible consequences will take place if you leave: "hell"; "demon possession"; "incurable diseases"; "accidents"; "suicide"; "insanity"; "10,000 reincarnations"; etc.
c. Shunning of leave takers. Fear of being rejected by friends, peers, and family.
d. Never a legitimate reason to leave. From the group's perspective, people who leave are: "weak;" "undisciplined;" "unspiritual;" "worldly;" "brainwashed by family, counselors;" seduced by money, sex, rock and roll.

bkry · Joined: 17 Apr 2004 Posts: 113 Location: Malaysia

Sweetest ifegenia, who is Steve Hasson? Is he or was he not a Christian? How do you know that he is not influenced by Christian thinking, Christian up-bringing etc? I have given a further answer to your question in the BK section of this Forum as “Answer to ifegenia / Are Brahma Kumaris a cult?”. I have done this because the Administrator might not like this main Forum to get filled with gyan. Read that if you are interested.
_________________
God's angel.
BK Pari

ifegenia · Joined: 12 Apr 2004 Posts: 17

Sweetist of the Sweetist BKRY: (Is this disingenuous enough yet?)

It doesn't matter if Steve Hassan is Buddhist, Jewish, or Christian.
He does not judge people of any religion. His concern is when groups have undue influence over a person.

The late great Margaret Singer described this as follows:

"The coercive psychological influence of these programs aim to overcome the individual's critical thinking abilities and free will - apart from any appeal to informed judgment. Victims gradually lose their ability to make independent decisions and exercise informed consent. Their critical thinking, defenses, cognitive processes, values, ideas, attitudes, conduct and ability to reason are undermined by a technological process rather than by meaningful free choice, rationality, or the inherent merit or value of the ideas or propositions being presented."

You may read more of Dr. Singer's work at:

www.csj.org/studyindex/studymindctr/study_mindctr_singer.htm

ifegenia · Joined: 12 Apr 2004 Posts: 17

BKRY wrote in the BK section:

Frank · Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Posts: 36 Location: The Netherlands

The question weather the BK is a cult or not has crossed my mind several times the last 7 years. So to say ever since I joined the BK.
I do not want to go into all sorts of scientific analysis and so, because I would like to answer this question from within.

I do not feel the BK as being a cult. I am from a non religious background. (Humanistic, liberal) My father abolished all forms of religion within the family, because his opinion was that religion is the root of all violence in the world. So bhakti and gyan were both new to me when I started my spiritual search. This is why I did not fall into the trap of belonging to the BK cult like many did. The BK therefore is a cult if you let it to be one. From the outside world (kaliyug world) people see a bunch of white dressed (om chanteurs) devotees and the link to a cult is easyly made. Even so all the cryptic secretive BK talk with its own emblemata seems cultlike to the outside world. To our family and friends our sudden transformation into BK angels seemed so odd. Whilest the BK organisation tries to portray themselves as a spiritual non cultlike university in the world the insiders become some sort of sanyassins or swami's and thus similar to the Hara Krishna club.
I do not feel the BK as a cult.

Once a fellow brother from Amsterdam centre said: " The BK a cult? Yeah, but it's a very nice cult !"

I do not feel the BK as a cult.
I have met all the officionados, the dadi's, the jayanti's, the mike's, the teachers etc and they all seemed to be normal humans to me.
Gulzar dadi seemd a nice old granny with humour when I met her just like that. She has nice little feet, but I did not feel the urge of phisicly kissing them. Then suddenly she was different in her Bapdada role naturally.
But hey, look at all the circus around Diamond Hall when Bapdada comes. This seems cultlike bhakti.
I do not feel the BK as a cult
It is one if you make it one.
_________________
ONLY SILENCE REMAINS,
when I listen to him,
when I listen to the silence

Guest · Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 5:53 am Post subject:

what a contradictionarry line of thoughts ...

"It is one if you make it one."

can be applied to all "cults"

Frank · Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Posts: 36 Location: The Netherlands

The BK can be a cult if you make it a cult.

To be more clearly.
In essence the BK is not a cult according to the teachings
It could be a cult, because of one's own bhakti sanskars.
Because oft stricktness and rigidness.
Thats why in some centres yogi's walk around like angels that just chewed up a couple of lemons. Good for the vitamine C for the soul, but not for happyness.
In some centres they even urge you to pay 25% of your netto salary to keep the centre running. Sounds like a cult.
It shows that the BK is not everywhere that homogenious club that it wants to be.
_________________
ONLY SILENCE REMAINS,
when I listen to him,
when I listen to the silence

Jim · Joined: 16 Aug 2004 Posts: 9 Location: UK

http://www.cesnur.org/testi/bryn/br_kranenborg.htm

This website article discuss whether the BKs are a religion, a religeous movement or just a side show of Hinduism.

Jim

Jim · Joined: 16 Aug 2004 Posts: 9 Location: UK

Kevin - what's going on with your dharna - is it necessary to run others down?

Paul · Joined: 13 Mar 2004 Posts: 72

Digging for answers? Here is one way how its done:

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=206345