XBK Chat (unofficial archive) A former meeting place for past members of Brahma Kumaris    FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Profile   You have no new messages   Log out   After Raj Yoga, can there be ANY faith? Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next          XBK Chat Forum Index -> XBK discussions View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Atma Joined: 26 Feb 2004 Posts: 98 Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2005 10:57 am    Post subject: After Raj Yoga, can there be ANY faith? It’s Sunday and I’m in a reflective mood. In response to my post under Jim’s topic, INCONSISTENCIES AND ANOMALIES” Gyaniwasi wrote: Quote: The alternative is to live in what has been elsewhere described as "an existential void." That can be terrifying - that living in uncertainty ... I think sometime ago you tried to deal with this by opening a topic on alternative lifestyles but it didn't get very far. The problem is that counselling is required while a new lifestyle is being developed. Counselling is a special skill, requiring much empathy and I guess the closest we can get to that on this site is to share experiences in frank and open discussions like this one. What he is referring to is a thread I started in April last year, in the XBKs only forum. Under the topic “Life after the BKs”, I tried to show how, by adjusting one’s outlook and lifestyle, one can move on in a positive way, after quitting Raj Yoga. I stand by what I said. However, while lifestyle and outlook can be adjusted, what I have found to be particularly problematic is the issue of faith – any faith. The Raj Yoga experience took one to dizzying heights of spiritual intoxication, and hope for an idyllic future. The comedown from that feeling can, in some ways I suppose, be likened to the drug user’s ordeal when going through “withdrawal” during detoxification - only this is slower, longer and more persistent. It’s fine to have an individual understanding of - and communion with - one’s concept of the divine. Some of that is brought out by marqu, who opened the topic “Relation with God after BK?”, again in the exclusive forum. So why have I opened this topic? To go over old ground? No, here I am pointing to the crisis of faith itself. After the BKs, is it possible to have any faith? After all, for quite some time, we felt that we were following God himself, not simply a guru or even a prophet. When that faith is dashed, there are very profound effects. Most of us have a spiritual bent, to begin with. That bent played a part in our getting in to RY in the first place. After the RY experience, the involvement with the BKs may cease, but the need or hunger for God continues. I have some questions for my fellow XBKs. Have any or you, after experiencing the “existential void’ gyaniwasi mentioned, ever gravitated back to the faith you were born in? In other words, have you felt a pull towards Chritianity, Islam, “traditional” Hinduism, Buddhism or whatever faith your family subscribes to? If so, what has been the experience? Did you / do you feel somewhat sheepish to slink back into a church, mosque or temple? Do you feel squeamish to face the very people you may have been lecturing the BK “knowledge” to some years ago? Remember when we were in that “know it all” mode? And whenever you are in such gatherings, do you feel self conscious, two faced, guity or somewhat out of place? Most important, were you / are you able to reconnect and have faith once again in another religion and deity? Least it be said that I am only asking questions, let me share my own experience. After leaving the BKs, one doesn’t want much to do with any kind of organized religion. However, as it's been said, man is a social being and, after a while, being a “lone ranger” can feel pretty lonely and isolated. No man is an island. One misses the feeling of fellowship that group worship brings. It’s connected to that need to belong …to something. So yes, I have tried it - but it has not worked. I just can’t have full faith again in any religious belief. Is that good, bad or indifferent? What has been your experience? gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2005 9:30 pm    Post subject: Atma wrote: Quote: After leaving the BKs, one doesn’t want much to do with any kind of organized religion. However, as it's been said, man is a social being and, after a while, being a “lone ranger” can feel pretty lonely and isolated. No man is an island. One misses the feeling of fellowship that group worship brings. It’s connected to that need to belong …to something. So yes, I have tried it - but it has not worked. I just can’t have full faith again in any religious belief. Is that good, bad or indifferent? Thanks for opening this topic Atma. I happen to share that experience and view. However, I cannot close the door completely. I cannot and will not kill Hope that "springs eternal in the human soul." So I remain open - but very wary! One of the major - if not the major - disadvantage of living in an existential void is the loss of what I consider "the power of certitude." This is also the power of Faith which is essential to accomplish anything substantial in life. To give up hope of finding that Faith again is to slip into cynicism or at worst to commit a sort of spiritual suicide. [I think that is what happened to my friend Wally, who introduced me to the BKs]. One of the strange things about Life is that Faith is required to live it and, unless it is broken, it affords the one who invests in it tremendous power. The tele-evangelists understand this very well; those who indoctrinate suicide bombers also understand this very well. I think the irony here is perhaps best summarized by the Irish poet W.B. Yeats his poem The Second Coming - that is, "The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity." That passionate intensity gave us great power, and I think what many fear instinctively is the loss of that power - it is an easier alternative to live in a state of denial where ignorance is bliss. Gy _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...." Atma Joined: 26 Feb 2004 Posts: 98 Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2005 1:08 pm    Post subject: gyaniwasi wrote: Thanks for opening this topic Atma. I happen to share that experience and view. However, I cannot close the door completely. I cannot and will not kill Hope that "springs eternal in the human soul." So I remain open - but very wary! Beautiful response gy. Good points made. Something to ponder though: You say that you are open to other ways. From your previous posts, I gather that its been about 20 years since you left the BK path. Does not the fact that, to date, you are still 'free floating' say something? Just asking... gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 7:20 am    Post subject: Maybe you're right! It does say something, though I'm not sure exactly what. Help me. Maybe, like you, "I'll never fall in love again" On a more serious note though, I've read of people taking over 20 years to overcome a cult experience. What helps is a good quality of discourse. Gy _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...." marqu Joined: 29 May 2005 Posts: 15 Location: Amsterdam Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 7:45 am    Post subject: Dear all, Stop this minute with what you are doing. Open your arms en let God come in... God is the God for everyone. Not only for BKs. You only have to open the door... let the past be the past. Like my grandmother said before she died... when someone asked her if she needed a priest. "No thanks, I am already with God!" She said. You are just as able as every person on this earth to be with God… we just have to open up. If you think it is not possible…. Than you close the door yourself… and even that is not true… it is the power of your thoughts that makes you believe it is not possible. So stop that and open up. Did not God say that we are his children and we can claim our birthright? Than claim it! There is a lot of truth in the BK lessons. This one is a beautiful one and I know it is true by experience.(read my other mail). We don’t need the BK to be our intermediair… that is only a thought and it keeps you small and independent. So see yourself as a child of God and act as one! Lots of love... Marja _________________ There is life after BK! gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 12:31 am    Post subject: Oh dear That's quite a scolding Ma but I'm afraid we've had different experiences. See my exchange with Whal to get an idea. You're so lucky that God has found you. Count your blessings sis, and thanks for the advice Fraternally, Gy _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...." Atma Joined: 26 Feb 2004 Posts: 98 Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 6:40 pm    Post subject: Marja, I appreciate the good intent behind your spirited intervention. However, I think we are talking 'apples and oranges'. In other words, my post was about one thing - affiliation to a GROUP or organized religion - and your response is about another thing - one's PERSONAL relationship with God. As I said before, I have no doubt that many (including XBKs) can and do experience that personal relationship - or at least the feeling or sensation of a relationship - with the Supreme. However, we are talking at cross- purposes, because what I was getting at is an involvement in GROUP worship. Even though they may be connected, they are two different things. Your experience and suggestion does not negate the need that I am talking about - the social interaction and feeling of belonging that group worship fosters. Get it? Frank Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Posts: 36 Location: The Netherlands Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 4:23 am    Post subject: Om Shanti! I subscribe the feeling and personal commitment/experience of Marja fully. I was with one of her meetings some time ago and I must say that it made me have a happy feeling. I know the MOST important thing in a spiritual life is to have a personal connection. Sometimes it feels hard to express this because of all of the cynism and negativism in this world. Courage is to have faith in the expression of your connection with Baba. Spirituality begins with this personal communication line of crystal light with Baba. If you ever thought that belonging to an organisation meant belonging to God, than you were misguided by your own oldworld ideas. I never felt that I left Baba after taking my position as distracted observer. I do not want to cling to any little something. Freedom is not a thing that can be labeled. So after "leaving the BK" I did not fall back into Bhakti, because there was no Bhakti in my family. The first religion that I adopted was that of the BK Brahminreligion. I lost this religion after meeting Bapdada. Realisation was that Baba was not there in the whole circus of the event, the music, the words, the Dadis and Didis or anything lokik. Baba was there suddenly in me. Baba was not in the words, but in between the lines. Baba's presence is like a neutrino detected as Cherenkov radiation, but for sure it IS. (The neutrino cannot be captured but leaves an impression) My point is that after recognition no one ever leaves. _________________ ONLY SILENCE REMAINS, when I listen to him, when I listen to the silence marqu Joined: 29 May 2005 Posts: 15 Location: Amsterdam Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 9:52 am    Post subject: [color=blue]Sorry Atma, I didn’t go into your mail and my enthusiasm was a bit to much. To answer your questions… I was not raised with any religion. Although my mother had always books about religions I used to read. I talk often with people from other religions and we are always close. Because they come from the same source as I do. We love the same God. I met people from other religions with the same kind of experiences. And we are one… all children of God. Brothers and sisters. I don’t have to feel squeamish because I respected them also in the BK time. I always looked for what binds us in stead of separates us. There are always differences of course, but that is mostly an other rule. No sex, a little sex, a lot of sex, no garlic, no meat, no fish on Tuesday etc. But that’s not the issue. I don’t have to feel guilty for what I believed in. Just like I ones believed in radical feminism. It was a part of my education and my development. All these experiences make me what I am now. I don’t have faith in religions. I have faith in souls and in God. That’s enough. Last week I felt a bit sad. I stepped on my bicycle and enjoyed the evening. I pasted a church and it was open. It was the Christian Science church. I went in and first there were a lot of peaces of the bible. The woman priest went quickly through the sentences so I did not follow what she was saying. Then all the people were invited to tell there experiences. One woman told that she learned that we are perfect images of God and that we forget. So we looked at eachother and I felt our sisterhood. Those bible sentences did not do much, but I felt those people are honestly being with God at this moment. This morning I started with a friend of mine, who lives nearby to meditate together. We both have no church or religion. We believe in God. She in her way and me in my way. Some candles, a cup of thee… and silence. Then we hugged and I left to do my things. When I went back home on my bike I felt one with everyone I saw. We belong to each other… all mankind… and with God. And you can organise your own gatherings in respect of each others differences. I hope this is more an answer to your questions? And Gyaniwasi, I did not mean to be scolding ( I looked it up in the dictonairy). I am just so full of God that I can't keep my mouth shut... sorry! And Frank, I love to read that you enjoyed the evening a few years ago! Thank you!!!!! Lots of love to all of you! Marja Marja[/color] _________________ There is life after BK! gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 10:25 am    Post subject: Hello Frank: You said Quote: The first religion that I adopted was that of the BK Brahminreligion. I lost this religion after meeting Bapdada. Realisation was that Baba was not there in the whole circus of the event, the music, the words, the Dadis and Didis or anything lokik. Baba was there suddenly in me. Baba was not in the words, but in between the lines. Baba's presence is like a neutrino detected as Cherenkov radiation, but for sure it IS. (The neutrino cannot be captured but leaves an impression) My italics and colour. What I just can't understand is this: in your present state of faith, is the subtle "Baba" you experienced then and now the same one the Brahma Kumaris follow and revere? In other words, when you say "Baba" now are you referring to the same Baba as the BKs? Is there the same connection and experience as before you went to Madhuban? If there is, then how have you managed to dissociate your faith and experience of your personal "Baba" from the one through whom the BKs brought you that experience in the first place? Aren't you ignoring a contradiction here? If, on the other hand, the "Baba" whose presence you experienced in Madhuban is not the same as the one the BKs revere, then how was this presence compatible with the "circus" you witnessed? If you lift the "presence" above the "circus" and call "It/Him" by the same name (Baba) then isn't this creating some confusion to those who have experienced the circus but not the presence? I think Kevin was in that category. For me, personally, I felt the "presence" and interacted with "Him" on a personal level. And the presence I felt was more subtle than the one I saw which was a being of complete white light during the meditation session waiting for the "arrival." The subtle "presence" felt was, for me, the point of arrival. But now, in retrospect, I/we xbks who visited Madhuban (not all) ask ourselves 'arrival of what?' - God Almighty or the soul/presence of Dada Lekraj/Prajapita Brahma visiting his disciples to fellowship with them? My point is: the experience of a "presence" can have different perspectives - a point alluded to by onepoint recently under the topic of "Anomalies." Thanks for sharing the subtle insight. Coming to terms with that 'experience of a presence' in retrospect is at the heart the xbk dilemma. Regards, Gyaniwasi _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...." gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 10:32 am    Post subject: Marqu said: Quote: I did not mean to be scolding ( I looked it up in the dictonairy). I am just so full of God that I can't keep my mouth shut... sorry! I understand dear. I was just teasing you. Take care. Gy _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...." Frank Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Posts: 36 Location: The Netherlands Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 2:20 am    Post subject: Om Shanti ! Hi Gyaniwasi, Yesterday I have been in the BK centre in Frankfurt/Germany. ( 5 Years after I was there at the opening by Gulzar Dadi)) I noticed that the BK’s there are very open and willing to churn on controversial subjects. I was there with my partner Mala and my tripleforeighner brother friend Jan. We were welcomed with a lot of love, hospitality and friendliness. Unfortunately Sudesh Didi was not there. Unlike in the Netherlands, we could talk about things like leaving the BK and why. Also how the BK can open up to XBK souls and what they could do to organize a dialog or forum. The willingness is there to keep into contact with the XBK’s that recognised Baba and Gyan. We talked about faith and the stages BK’s go through after introducing Baba in their lives. I compared it with the Gateless Gate of Zen Bhuddism(stages of taming the soul). First you are a baby in Baba’s arms, then you learn to walk, become older and older, until you are a grownup. You can also see it as a Mandala. [quote] Quote: What I just can't understand is this: in your present state of faith, is the subtle "Baba" you experienced then and now the same one the Brahma Kumaris follow and revere? In other words, when you say "Baba" now are you referring to the same Baba as the BKs? Is there the same connection and experience as before you went to Madhuban? If there is, then how have you managed to dissociate your faith and experience of your personal "Baba" from the one through whom the BKs brought you that experience in the first place? Aren't you ignoring a contradiction here? Right now my faith is different of that 7 years ago. Like that the understanding of Baba is changed. Before I came to Madhuban I thought that meeting Babdada was something really special. Everyone talked about it and I thought that this would go right through me and shake all of my being. At one point however it seemed the total oppositewhen I finally actually went to Madhuban in 2000. Before my realization, sitting there before the stage, I planned to walk up that stage and throw my BK ring in Dadi Gulzars lap and leave the BK and Madhuban. Then suddenly there was sweet brother Denzal Sinclaire from Canada, who instantly turned his head towards me and gave me a drishti as if he felt that there was something going on. I could read his subtile thoughts. “ We stay in Yoga, in rememberance”. This was the turning point. I realized that it all was very very sublile and that the whole circus was just a turmoil of souls begging and crawling for a vision or experience. The real thing was so incognito and subtile. This subtile Baba is still the one I am referring to. This Baba is also a personal Baba, for the MOST IMPORTANT relationship is that with Baba. Without this there can be no worldtransformation and personal transformation. The Baba I “follow” or follows me is the same as that of the BK, because there is just ONE and the ONE is ONE. We the children just go through different stages and understandings. Baba cannot be claimed by any organisation only I can claim HIM personally incognito for I have the right to the Fathers inheritance. The organisation can only give guidance to the souls. Quote: If you lift the "presence" above the "circus" and call "It/Him" by the same name (Baba) then isn't this creating some confusion to those who have experienced the circus but not the presence? I think Kevin was in that category. One should always lift the presence above the circus. This confusion is rather a non understanding of the subtility in the concept Paramatma (ShivBaba) and might be an obstacle on the personal path an transformation. No one can take you by the hand and lead you all the way. You must discover the footprints of Baba and the soul, follow them, spot the soul, tame the soul, find no thing and go back into the world. Step by step, Baba give you portionate servings. Every soul in its own pace. Some in one second. Others in one year. Enforced transformation leads to deformation. No one can judge your stage but you. All this can be natural, but sometimes there is conflict. Problems must become teachers, but teachers must not become problems. Yaad Pyaar Frank _________________ ONLY SILENCE REMAINS, when I listen to him, when I listen to the silence wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 2:27 am    Post subject: Dear Frank, Quote: Then suddenly there was sweet brother Denzal Sinclaire from Canada, who instantly turned his head towards me and gave me a drishti as if he felt that there was something going on. I could read his subtile thoughts. “ We stay in Yoga, in rememberance”. Thank you for your posting. I have very recently had a similar experience with a soul that has been studying raj yoga for many years but has never even been in contact with the BK organisation. I don't want to go into the details of this 'sharing' because I am still 'holding on' to the subtlety of it and to write about it would diminish it at this moment in time. Quote: Baba cannot be claimed by any organisation.............. The organisation can only give guidance to the souls. Your are absoultely right, we do need to rise above the circus and work with what we know to be reality for every indivual soul. There comes a point when the language of religion and the other words of other souls.........they become merely signposts. Thanks for you advice. om shanti with love wahl ex-london Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 131 Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2005 10:31 pm    Post subject: Faith after Raja Yoga, indepth response not for sociologists That is an interesting question. I had to check a dictionary definition of what faith is or was which I quote below. This post is intended as an open " work in progress " and not as a finished " truth " or thought. This is a fairly indepth response, that requires a broad base of spiritual, psychic and academic understanding and is not intended for sociologist, comparative religious instructors nor cult busters ! [ src. edited from http://www.dictionary.com ] Quote: Faith [ n. ] •Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing. •Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. •Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters. •The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will. •The body of dogma of a religion. •A set of principles or beliefs. I'd like to give a personal answer as well as more theoretical answer. In theory, I would have to say that anyone that *does* go back to faith after Raja Yoga could not have *got* Raja Yoga in the first place because in essence Raja Yoga is the destruction through diminishment of all other religious or psychological practices or beliefs. Individuals ought to realise the total and complete deconstructive absolutism of Brahma Kumarist mental practice. What would be an interesting thread to start would be to question how long, by what process or what preconditions are required for these seeds of destructions of all other loves and faith to flower in human minds! But it has to be said, after B.K. Raja Yoga, how can there be " faith ", " bhakti ", " worship " without voluntary and energetic reconstruction of the ignorant, blind or childlike mental state required for " faith "? The practise taught by the Brahma Kumaris is designed to erode and eradicate any other potentially challenging hope to one's soul. Seen in that light, if Brahma Kumari's Raja Yoga is *not* the work of " GOD " then it must be an almost perfect nihilistic psychic parasite meme. This process of spiritual annihilation brought about by pracitising Brahma Kumari's Raja Yoga is well documented through out this forum. The only three limitations I can see to this is if ; a) a state of severe trauma either physical, mental or social throws the practioner back on an earlier state of consciousness for the sake of survival. I think a perfect example of this is the previous quotation of a ex-B.K. that in panic re-found themself as a Church-goer. Physical and mental trauma are easy enough to understand, by social trauma I mean the type of experience where an individual moving from one's " native " faith causes such social upheaval with their closest family and community that they are forced or force themselves to re-immerse themselves in a particular social form of religion. [ i.e. religion not as a spiritual practice but social conformity ]. Generally soul destroying. b) a particular practice is taken up because it is seen or understood to have a " mechanically " productive effect. By which I mean, e.g. " I don't *believe* that hatha yoga/tai chi/aikido will bring me to enlightenment but by doing my body/spirit connection feels better / healthier / is more productive " or " I don't *believe* that chanting this particular mantra/visualising this Yantra connects me to a God but by doing it my such-and-such chakra opens up, it clears certain blockages and energy flows through me better ". c) actually, we were wrong all the time and Jesus / Mohammed / whoever was write after all and we all fake it like hell come the End of Time. To answer the question on a personally level, I would like to draw attention to the psychic level of effects of Brahma Kumari's so-called Raja Yoga. This is not a level that I see much discussion of as it is a level of awareness that either the Brahma Kumaris are unconscious to or, of course, institutionally block any discussion and awareness of. Indeed, they even control and exclude any acceptable language with which to duscuss it as to even discuss it would challenge the status quo. My deepest and most personal and saddest response is that since being indoctrinated by the Brahma Kumaris I have pretty much been unable to follow or practise any other spiritual form, never mind religious path. This strives from what I would define as a persistent psychic experience I started to have whilst practising Brahma Kumaris Raja Yoga that I have been unable to have externally or objectively defined. As soon as I try other spiritual or meditationary forms, this experience or these related experiences return so strongly that it makes any other form of practise impossible. And, of course, my mind has been so prejudiced into a state of superiority over non-practioners that I do not know of anyone or any group with which to turn to for bona fide assistance. Now, to an indoctrinated Brahma Kumaris this would be evidence that Brahma Kumaris Raja Yoga is " The Way, the Truth and The Light ". I don't believe that. I find the teachings and the institution of the Brahma Kumaris Raja Yoga too inconsistent to accept and hold the senior practioners responsible for serial abuses and perpetuating serial abuses of a spiritual nature rather than helping others grow. Just what the Brahma Kumaris " Source " and process of indoctrination is will be left for another thread and another time - and I do not have a final answer for that either - but I must say that I often feel I am exerting myself defensively on a spiritual or psychic level against this influence rather than " practising ", " worshipping " or " devoting " myself - all of which have some personal and objective value. The primary symptom I am talking about is the pressure felt on the area of the third eye which I can basically " turn on " almost immediately and become intense fairly quickly. On a minor level, I could also say the " whitening " visual effect many of you must have experienced. I think also my dhristi is either still " used " by their " Source ", " Guide " or " Guides " or else that it has been changed / strengthened in a way that I do not entirely understand. I must say that during my practise of Brahma Kumaris " Raja Yoga [tm] " - I bet Patanjali damn well wished that he had taken a trademark out on the use of that name because I cannot equate what the Brahma Kumaris practise as " Raja Yoga " - I had numerous " interesting " experiences, given a prior leaning towards Christian Spiritualism and family and social environments where psychic phenomena was more common place than McDonald dinners. I never actually " left my body " or had a " paramdham experience " but certainly experience detachment from the body form and the utter and general body consciousness that most folks live in. Funnily enough, proof that I was not doing but another or anothers through me, whilst teaching on a one to one basis; " students " did. I certainly did feel myself / my head being taken and guided almost as surely as someone was holding it on either side whilst giving " dhristi " from the " guddi " [ excuse spelling, it has been a long time ]. And I certainly experience other completely neophyte students on " The Seven Day Course " having visions *through me* or projected on me [ and I clearly state 'through me' because I was not giving them and have no idea how to ] during that " White Out " experience you sometimes have during open eyed meditation. The latter was always most entertaining as individuals that had not one iota awareness of Hinduism would have visions of old bearded men [ God Brahma ] turning into monkey's with crowns on their heads [ Hanuman ] or on another occassion I remember a Christian lady having what must have been vision of Jesus and then Mary. More than once jaws would drop or student snap out of meditation in fright and so I am convinced *something* was happening. I am still asking what though. As an aside, I am about 95% sure that one female student had a orgasm or something very close. So personally, I am complete stuck and at a lost as far as faith or practises go. Until I have a clear faith or knowledge of what these psychic phemomenas are and what the psychic source or sources of the Brahma Kumaris tradition are, I am spiritual paralysed and tragically upset at being so. When I came to the Brahma Kumaris I was at the starting point of seriously earnest spiritual seeking. I did not want peace of mind, my ego flattered, pampered by New Age sophistry, to buy into " positive thinking " sales pitches nor have my medieval Hinduistic voodoo crap beaten out of me. [ I am not from a Hindu background though have a better than average awareness of it for a Westerner ]. I wanted to understand the human condition and be trained to help me and then others manage, overcome, improve progress it. When I accidented into their centre, I was at the point of dedicating my life to the spiritual path and spiritual study. I respected them for their seeming purity of intent and although I did not go along with " The Knowledge ", I was willing to practise it earnestly and see what came out of it all. In my opinion, what I got was a mesmeric hypnogogic indoctrination and as far as I am concerned some kind of psychic attachment to who ever or what ever is their psychic " Source ", " Guide " or " Guides ". As far as I can see, learning to overcome, defeat or at least defend myself from that influence is the next and only thing I can hope for at present and I am hoping some other of you have ideas on how. I do not buy " Bah-bah ". To end, I would like to say this ; faith and Faiths are essential for " human monkeys ". I call us " human monkeys " just to remind us of how close to basic, frail and dependent biological beings humans and their minds truly still are. I would never criticise faith and Faiths as the Brahma Kumaris do until I was able to offer a complete alternative to them. I can't and to be honest, I won't. Being a Brahma Kumari has cured me for once and for all of ever wanting to be a guru, guide, or whatever! Forget it. I'll leave that to the Jankis and Sudeshes of this world. Challenging others faith is a dangerous act of spiritual aggression, domination and imperialism. It might be right and necessary at time *BUT* you better be damned sure of when and ready and prepared to carry the responsibility of the ramifications afterwards. Ramifications, I have experienced the Brahma Kumaris very quick drop, ditch and run. Faith and Faiths are the little liferafts and lighthouses that we all cling to and climb aboard from time to time on our journey. I have basically no idea what another human requires and teach myself not to judge and leave well alone. What the Brahma Kumaris want to do, teach their teachers and students to do is sink every other lifeboat, disassemble every other lighthouse, disfunction every other guide. How can one practise another faith if one part of one's self, one's mind has been set up and is continuing in that disfunctional process? It is like drilling a hole through the lifeboat with one hand; whilst bailing out water with the other. I accept that what the Jankis and Sudeshes of this world *are* doing *is* offering another brand of lifeboat and in many cases it *is* actually better than most alternatives, *especially* the Hindu Voodoo Hoodoo native to their own land. It is just clear to me that in order to run their business of providing psychic " lifeboat and lighthouse " services; they need a lot of metaphoric - as well as literally - joiners, bricklayers, painters and decorators; cooks and cleaners, to do their work for them! At the subjects own financial expense. And I have come to think at their own spiritual expense. I also raise one contentious question of how much they are just and have just actually used Westerners as sale pitch to their native Hindu Hoodoo client base and how much of Brahma Kumarism is applicable to those born into the Western Tradition. Notes : For lay readers ; I just want to state that, canonically, the Brahma Kumaris or their " Source " promises to them that this destruction, or at least deconstruction, of all other faiths *will* happen and they, the Brahma Kumaris are to be the one and only True [ tm ] " Lighthouses " of the World. That all other faiths and faith leaders will and must come to them for enlightenment. To be specific, the Brahma Kumaris teach - and speculate consistently upon the notion that the leaders of other religious are, in fact, " failed " B.K. students who did not complete the Brahma Kumaris Raja Yoga course and only took one small part of it basing their entire religion on that small part. Quote: Hoodoo ; [ n. ] a practise to allow people access to supernatural forces to influence their daily lives. Hoodoo is believed to have influence in many areas, including gambling, love, divination, cursing one's enemies, treatment of disease, employment, and necromancy For sociologists, comparative religious instructors and cult busters ; don't try and walk on water unless you have learnt to swim first. For current practising B.K. ; you really should not be reading this website ... don't waste your breath doing me with " Gyan ". For concerned families and friends of current practising B.K.s ; I can provide a simple vanilla edition of what I am trying to write in plain English on request. jim brady Joined: 13 Jul 2005 Posts: 19 Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:29 am    Post subject: I would imagine that most of you readers, you ex bk’s, have become agnostics or atheists. Once you’ve been in Raja Yoga it’s hard to see where to go once you’ve left. Can’t see how any Westerners could have gone back to mainstream religion and become again Catholics, Protestants, Born-agains, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists etc. since we spent no little time rubbishing and scoffing at the inadequacies of these faiths. If you leave one Christian group it’s quite likely that another Christian group or fellowship will have just the right slant or interpretation of ‘God’s word’ to allow one to almost make a seamless transition. That option doesn’t exist for those who were once comfortable in the BKWSU. Looking back now it feels so terribly disappointing and somewhat depressing the way it all worked out. The philosophy that promised so so much, in the end failed to deliver. Like climbing to the top of the highest known peak, feeling so satisfied and accomplished, only to discover when the clouds clear that a far more gigantic peak looms in the distance, the top of which can’t even be seen. The so-called mountain was only a mole hill. So cast adrift again, what a bummer. A part of me still wishes that Raja Yoga will one day come true, that somehow it will right itself, the Shiva at the back of it all will really start to play a role, the answers will flow, the inconsistencies will iron themselves out. But it doesn’t look likely. There’s just no going back on a preposterous 5,000 year cycle etc. and since God hasn’t addressed any of the inconsistencies of Raja Yoga in the last 68 years, well, I wouldn’t hold my breath. All that’s left is to live out life as best as possible and after death we might just find out just which philosophy or religion was closest to the truth. All a bit depressing for anyone who thought they’d cracked it. Jim Brady Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First         XBK Chat Forum Index -> XBK discussions All times are GMT - 5 Hours Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next Page 1 of 3   You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group