XBK Chat (unofficial archive)

jim brady · Joined: 13 Jul 2005 Posts: 19

Would like to hear responses from BK's to the following:

Came into RY back in 1983. Why did I join? Probably for some of the same reasons as you all did. The philosophy appeared to be quite unusual, original and convincing, initially. There were no fees involved and the elders were not swanning around in Ferraris, lording it over the hoi polloi. The social aspect was welcoming, people were very friendly and decent, and the ideals within the movement appeared to be the highest possible, with God apparently behind it all. And with not much else out there in an at times depressing and empty world, RY offered self-preservation in this life and beyond. I felt special and very lucky.

In the beginning I found the philosophy re cycle, karma, God etc quite ingenious with unlimited potential, totally unlike any of the vacuous nonsense I’d heard before. I was enthralled by it and it appeared water-tight, and I was greatly encouraged by the fact that the teacher giving me the class seemed quite open to discussing anything and everything. The whole skeleton of the cycle seemed eminently plausible with just the finer details to be ironed out. But as the years went by and the intermittent murli attendances were chalked up I gradually realised that the gaps were not going to be filled in. We were going to have to make do with our own fanciful speculation. The seniors were either inaccessible, disinterested in discussing certain issues, or too busy disseminating information on the vaguer stuff. The deity himself apparently, couldn’t be bothered addressing any of the issues or commenting about any of the anomalies. Disappointment and frustration set in and since I wasn’t getting mind-altering experiences in meditation I began to drift further and further away.

Here are the main issues that bothered me right from the start which I perhaps foolishly let go:

1. The ridiculously short cycle, the history of which obviously cannot be stuffed into so small a box. Unless the Minoans were silver-aged, and the Atlanteans, and when one considers the size of the Assyrians kings’ list, and the dynasties of the Pharaohs, and the Chinese pre-Taoist kingdoms, and the history of Israel from Abraham to Jesus, including wars with Syria, Babylon and Rome, the fall of the first and second temples, the captivity in Babylon until the emancipation by Cyrus, the reign of Saul and Solomon and all the kings after Jeroboam, the disappearance of the ten tribes, the long prophetic period, the early Talmudic period leading up to Jesus ... you just can’t fit it all into less than 500 years from the end of the Silver age. It would appear to me that Brahma who came from a very poor village had little education and had little knowledge of ancient history, had just conjured up the figure himself, it simply tied in with some of his Hindu beliefs. I’ve never come across any scientific writings (apart from a small section of musings by Velikovsky) that would allow for such a short cycle. I’ve always thought that a 10,000 year cycle would sound reasonable, but a 5,000 year one was just plain daft and simply not credible. It contradicts almost everything that we know, historical, archaeological and cultural evidence. I was always puzzled as to why the deity never spoke on the issue, and was never questioned on an issue that is so fundamental. It’s almost as ridiculous as saying that the cycle is a few hundred years old. Out of thousands of murlis (most of them repeating the same old points in the same old boring fashion) with not one word on the issue. I can’t be the only one who has been troubled by such silence. I was always told from the start that the scientists will gradually come round to cyclic time, that all the evidence is moving in the BK direction, it’s only a matter of time, alas not so. To quote a guest on this site: I was always busy - from the beginning - in researching all the science in it. I always thought it was a matter of time before I would hit on some plausible theories ... they never came.

2. I remember sitting in front of Gulzar/Shiva having being told that if I wanted to ask any questions in English they would have to be translated into Hindi so that “God could understand!!!!!!!!”........yeah, right! Periodically this one used to really bug me.

3. Throughout approx. 10 years in the institution I never really got to find out much about this inscrutable God person. What exactly does he do apart from a bit of lecturing/teaching? Too many simple questions were never answered about the being. Does he meet souls each time they die? What does he do for people of all the other religions or the non-religious? Is he responsible for miracles?. Is he little more than a warm fuzzy feeling that we sometimes get in life? Does he communicate with souls in the soul world? Does he tell each non-bk at the end of the cycle that they happen to not belong to the elite and they can now say bye bye to heaven? If he loves us all what does he do for us all, how does he show that love? This Shiva might give some kind of introduction but the introduction for me was, and is, minimal. For 2,500 years he says he does nothing but as regards the other half I’m no wiser. What involvement does he have in other religions, does he intervene in people’s lives, does he put ideas into people’s heads, does he answer prayer, does he know everything, does he know what I’m thinking, why is he so revered, what has he ever done for mankind, according to the BK’s he never even made the world. It’s tricky trying to think about someone all day long when you don’t know much about them. I think if most BK’s were honest they would say that their best meditation experiences occurred when they visualised idyllic scenes/interactions i.e. the experiences were of their own making and not due to any mystical interaction with a deity. Similar experiences can probably be got elsewhere in other faiths or practices.

Also the logistics of meditation are never explained fully by the BKWSU. Souls cannot think or act outside the body, yet Shiva who is identical in form apparently can. In order to become pure it is necessary to visualise God as a form of light and a point of energy. Somehow this is meant to bring magical and cleansing results, whereas other forms of contemplation of God as practiced by other faiths e.g. sincere prayer, are deemed to be quite ineffective and worthless. Apparently the moody deity only responds when you call him by his correct name, he is strangely peeved and hard of hearing when someone gets his name wrong or is confused as to his real identity. Also the obscure wavelength of communication with Shiva is strangely only one way. Even when the mind is made still and peaceful rarely do you hear of BK’s honestly describing God contacting them. I remember myself sitting in front of “God”, locking into the experience and waiting to be hit by a thunderbolt of love/peace/ecstasy/whatever, I couldn’t have been more focussed or more soul-conscious, but nothing happened, what an anti-climax! On all the occasions I practised meditation I almost always felt that it was me creating my own experience, there was no outside force trying to get through to me.

4. Was always troubled by the lack of evidence of a Golden Age. Everything associated with it appears to have conveniently disappeared, everything totally destroyed, palaces and vemans vaporised! And again at the end of the Iron Age all evidence is wiped clean again, how? And with such destruction going on twice every cycle, how does anyone survive to propagate the species. I never got any answers on this kind of stuff. Is the ocean of knowledge more pond-like in nature? I once was told that everywhere on the planet from A to Y gets pulverised at the end of the Iron Age. Those living in Z then migrate to somewhere from A to Y (the animals probably following two by two). Then Z gets pulverised. As usual no more detail is provided to explain this convenient and childish stop-gap.

5. Those souls who suffer dreadful pain and deprivation in the early days of the Copper Age (lepers, for example) well, who are they? They couldn’t be new souls, and they couldn’t be BK’s since BK’s only start getting a hard time at the end of the Iron age, so who are they? One of the seniors I spoke to on the issue hinted that they fell into another category, but then clammed up completely and said that she didn’t want to elaborate.

Next here’s a bunch of secondary issues, they never bothered me as much:

1. The dreadfully boring sakar murlis. Time after time I went to class with pen and paper, ending up with just a blank sheet. It’s puzzling how a Supreme Being can only come up with rather banal prose. I never went to class with any sense of excited anticipation as to what was God going to talk about today. It was just the same old rambling rhetoric, a hotchpotch of praise and threat, insights into Hindu trivia, and the 7 day course hammered and re-hashed again and again. I was told that the same murlis are recycled every 3 years (I’m not too sure about this). All the old writings are not available for BK consumption. This would mean that over 90% of God’s words between 1936 and 1969 are deemed by some authority to be not worth examining. My guess is that the sakars were the thoughts and ramblings of Brahma and/or a bodiless guide, and after a while he ran out of things to say and resorted to just repeating himself. I always thought they were ungodlike, needlessly repetitive, poorly structured and guilt laden. I don’t know much about Brahma’s life story but the naivety of his letter to King George of England telling him about the end of the world, the length of the cycle and the coming of God really beggars belief.

2. The waffly, rambling avyakt murlis - I couldn’t get much from them. And why are they so different from the sakars when they are meant to be spoken by the same person? And why the change of voice? Is it that the Avyakts are simply the ruminations of Gulzar or some other bodiless guide channelled through her, different from Brahma’s “guide”? An old xbk who wishes to remain anonymous described them once to me as follows: The Avyakts are classic carrot-and-stick operations. First you are praised to the sky, then you are undercut completely. You are the light of the world – but on second thought, there are three kinds of light, and the kind you happen to be is so filthy and rotten, that you are a light in name only. But there is still a chance for you – if you are perfect from now on and come to class every day – maybe. Meanwhile shut up and do what the Dadi tells you. To those who are the real lights of the world, love, remembrance and namaste, yours truly, God. Some of the Murlis do contain tantalizing hints of deeper information – but the promise is never fulfilled – and the Dadis will never follow up on the hints, and if you push them they’ll tell you you’re not pure enough to understand.

3. I could never understand why God only appeared or appears a few times a year, the visits over time, as far as I know, are becoming less and less frequent. With very little time left you’d think he’d be coming more regularly. Is he too busy to visit Madhuban? If the visits have simply diminished in frequency due to Gulzar’s health then it merely bolsters the case that Bapdada is only Gulzar

4. I’ve seen it stated in many murlis that:”there is no need to remember Brahma and no need to keep pictures of him”. Yet every centre seemed to make him overly prominent.

5. All the so-called trivia: flags on the moon and space probes finding their way back to earth; carnivores, insects, mosquitoes and venus fly traps in the GA. Dinosaurs ... reproduction by humans in the GA ... reproduction by animals in the GA ... decay of animal carcasses in the GA ... the mechanics of Dharamraj ... purpose of sex organs in GA karma for animals ... whether trees have souls ... advance parties ... animals surviving destruction ... extinct species getting re-introduced the planet speedily recovering from radiation poisoning ... aliens, ghosts, in-between body states ... the death experience ... profound differences between races - no clarification on any of this stuff, not even a brief comment.

6. Could never understand or get information and insight into the soul world (never mind the subtle regions) ... a world of peace and quiet ... does any thought exist there ... does any action occur there ... is it just a state of nothingnessnever heard anything but the briefest of explanations. Again another filler-in. An ex bk describes it as follows: the soul world is perhaps an expedient solution to the problem of where do souls come from before they enter the cycle. Just a fix to make the whole cycle/tree philosophy work and from a reason/purpose point of view utterly useless.

7. 1976 controversy and the ‘Shankar party’, brushed under the carpet, nothing published by the institution on the matter, the plebs are again forced to speculate.

8. The trivialization of other faiths: Christianity, Buddhism, Islam etc. They have no place in heaven, they’ve had their day and are destined to just fizzle out at the end.

9. The BK philosophy is unpublished and generally speaking unchallenged as a result. If time is so short then what are they so afraid of? Is it that the 5,000 year cycle would be ridiculed by the scientific community? And why the sneaky covert approach, disguising it as some innocuous relaxation course? Why the subterfuge and the elaborate smokescreen? Why not make the whole philosophy transparent and let the media have a good look at it all? What have they got to lose?

10. The BK practice of not eating onions, garlic and eggs. Very wishy-washy reasons given for this. It would appear to be something just borrowed from an ancient custom of the Brahmin caste.

11. The unwillingness to answer questions and encourage a questioning mind and the fanciful speculation and dishonest manoeuvrings that dominate. To quote Atma on the dinosaur issue:

0791 · Arjuna

Respected Bhai

Is this your condition that the answer to your questions should be by BK only?

with regards
om shanti

jim brady · Joined: 13 Jul 2005 Posts: 19

To 0791

I don't mind who replies

Jim Brady

hanuman · Joined: 23 Jun 2004 Posts: 174

Jim,

You must be congratulated for your extensive documentation of anomalies and inconsistencies in the BKs' body of cannonical knowledge. Very Happy

I have asked similar questions. Instead of waiting for an answer from the BKs body of cannonical knowledge, I have used the ABC of Raj Yog as keys for opening doors to other sources of knowledge and wisdom. In many cases, I simply had to open doors in my own psyche and the information was there waiting for me.

When I was initiated into Raj Yog about thirty years ago, I was also a chila of Scientific Medicine. Currently as a teacher of Scientific Medicine, I have been making an effort to refine the art of using the keys of the ABC of Raj Yog to spiritually evolve and to empower others, including my students. IT IS A GREAT MISTAKE TO EXPECT SCIENTIFIC ANSWERS FROM THE BKS ALL THE TIME. IT IS ALSO A MISTAKE TO EXPECT A 95 % -100 % MATCH BETWEEN THE CANNONICAL KNOWLEDGE OF THE BKS AND CANNONICAL SCIENCE. It is the inconsistencies of cannonical science that are the sources of major break throughs or paradigm shitts.

There was an internal conflict I had to resolve on my journey in gyan. That conflict was due to the fact that I was brought up in the traditions of the Church of England and I was studying esoteric oriental philosophy. I was simply not satisfied with the BK response of, " ......You are a lost soul or a soul who decided to make a left or right turn and go into another path...." By my own investigations, I have been able to obtain deeper answers about my self. I used the keys of the ABC of Raj Yog to conduct my investigations. Now I have a humbled pride or grounded intoxication about my role in the Christian community. I have used the keys of the ABC of Raj Yog to conduct other explorations pertaining to myself and my brothers and sisters around the world.

Atma, Baba and Chakra are the ABCs of Raj Yog. My experience of the Supreme has been personal and deep. In spite of my physical disconnection or banishment, I still have a personal and deep connection with the Supreme. The cycle for me is a model. Like the models based on the Scientific Method, it has its limitations and strong points. One weak point is the 5000 year span. How was time measured during the periods of history? Edgar Cayce only had a grade 7 education. He was, however, able give accounts of many historical events with a high degree of reliability, i.e. accuracy and precision. He was able to tap into the Akashic Records. There is a whole body of knowledge on neuropsychology of time. Even the scientific community has not extensively explored that area of knowledge.

Both types of murlis have potent magical qualities. That has been my personal experience. Take a point in a murli and focus on it throughout the day. Experience the energy of the idea and even feel yourself as a power source of the idea. By the end of the day, you would acquire that power or virtue. Smile

Of course, to make the magic work or to energize the words of a murli, a soul needs to be in communiion with the Supreme.

The gaps are there in the BK cannonical knowledge called gyan. The gaps can be filled or the pieces of the puzzle matched by using the ABC OF RAJ Yog as keys. The use of the keys is always a personal action.
Communication with other members of the spiritual community is also essential when using the keys of the ABC of Raj Yog.
_________________
Om Shanti,
To my brothers and sisters.

Love to you all,
Errol bhai

Arjuna · Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 4:04 am Post subject:

Dear Jim bhai,
Omshanti. You have raised so many issues in the same post that it is difficult to answer all the questions at the same time. Hence, I am reproducing below my answer given in response to a simiilar querry raised about the span of world cycle.

"As regards the 5000 years cycle I wish to say that throughout the world religion is believed to be more a matter of faith than scientific understanding, but still Baba’s knowledge can very much be tallied with history and science. I know that it is difficult for a science student to immediately accept Baba’s theory of 5000 years cycle. But on the basis of murlis its comparison with scientific and historical data, I personally believe that this cycle is possible. We in advance party have been told by Shivbaba that since there will not be any palaces etc. (as believed by the BKs) in the Golden and Silver Ages and that the deities will live only in natural surroundings (gardens), there is no recorded history of those ages (2500 years). The human civilization in non-deity form started from Copper Age onwards (2500 years ago) which is recorded in the history. The recorded history of human civilization may not exactly tally with the knowledge of 5000 years drama but is nevertheless comparable with it.

From my comparative study of various religions vis-à-vis BK knowledge, I have come to the conclusion that among the theories of origin of Earth and mankind propagated by all major religions, the knowledge given by Baba is nearest to the scientific or historical theories, if not exactly the same. Western religions believe that the world was created in 7 days , while Vedas conceive Universe to be like a cosmic cow or horse or man (purusha) which was disintegrated to produce the mountains, rivers, earth etc. Another Hindu theory talks of Prajapati, the creator, who created man, deities and earth. I am cent percent sure that these theories can never be proved scientifically or tallied with history. Only the BK/PBK theory is nearest to the scientific and historical theories. And I am sure that if scientists and historians work together in this direction, Baba’s knowledge can be tallied with science and history to a greater extent.

History speaks about the oldest civilization of the earth, i.e. the Indus Valley Civilization having originated about 2500 B.C.E. It is now 2005 A.D. So the time since the beginning of civilization according to history comes to around 4500 years (2500+2000). But according to historians the first books of human civilization, i.e. the Vedas originated around 1500 B.C.E. So, the actual recorded history comes to approximately 1500+2000=3500 years. If you tally it with Baba’s knowledge, Baba says that the recorded history is of 2500 years. So isn’t it more nearer to actual history than the imaginary theories about creation propounded by most of the religions, which is blindly being believed by almost entire population of the world?

If the above historical figures are belived then Hinduism (or the Vedic religion) is supposed to have started 4500 years ago, while Baba says that the ancient deity religion was established 5000 years ago. According to historical beliefs the legendary Prophet Abraham, who founded Judaism (Islam, according to Baba) came around 1800 B.C.E (but this is subject to debate because the stories mentioned in the old testament, which mentions about the Prophets prior to Christ including Abraham, is not a historical document). Baba says that Abraham came around 250 B.C.E. Buddha is believed to have come around 563 B.C.E. (250 B.C.E, as per Baba). Both Baba and history believes Christ to have come 2000 years ago. The time of arrival of rest of the religious fathers talles with the knowledge. So, even from the angle of time of arrival of various religious fathers and establishment of various religions, Baba’s knowledge is very near to historical theories. The above historical facts can be verified from history books. I can suggest one or two books if you really want to verify my statements.

One more point to be noted is that while all other religions do not allow any debate or discussion on the actual religious texts (they call it blasphemy), you are free to ask questions regarding Baba's knowledge (more in PBKs than BKs). And since Shivbaba is practically present on Earth, you could ask any kind of question to get clarification. Many discussion vcds released by the Advance party are a proof to this fact."

With regards,
ON Godly service,
Arjuna

hanuman · Joined: 23 Jun 2004 Posts: 174

Arjun,

The Indus valley civilization is the oldest recorded historically. However, the civilizations of Atlantis and Lemuria predate the civilization currently regarded as the Indus Valley civilization. The dinosaurs existed during the Atlantean period of history.
_________________
Om Shanti,
To my brothers and sisters.

Love to you all,
Errol bhai

Guest · Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 9:27 pm Post subject:

Bhai Hanuman,

According to whom?

Take Care,

hanuman · Joined: 23 Jun 2004 Posts: 174

Papaya,

Here are a number of sources:

Edgar Cayce On Altantis, (based on the psychic readings of Edgar Cayce)

Greg Little, Atlantis In The Bahamas? Atlantis Rising May/June 2005, pp 42-43 & 69.

The Way of The Essenes, By Anne and Daniel Meurois-Givaldan

Dr. Little is a marine archaelogist. In his article he cites other published sources.

Edgar Cayce who had many past incarnations in Atlantis and Egypt, described the scientific measures taken by the Atlanteans to control the dinosaur populations at that time. The developed laser weapons to kill the dinosaurs. It was the Ice Age which contributed, according to the Cayce Readings, to the massive destruction of the giant animals.

Anne and Daniel Meurois were Essenes when Jesus was teaching in the Middle East about 2000 yaers ago. They indicate that the Essenes were aware of Atlantis.

I would like you to understand me clearly.

My contention is that the civilization of which Harrapa and Mohinjodharo were components of could not have predated the Atlantean period. Sure the Adi Sanatan Devi Deota Dharm did predate Atlantis.
_________________
Om Shanti,
To my brothers and sisters.

Love to you all,
Errol bhai

bkry · Joined: 17 Apr 2004 Posts: 113 Location: Malaysia

I thought "Atlantis" was another name used to refer to the Heavenly Kingdom that existed during the first half of the cycle and which went down at the end of the Silver Age.
_________________
God's angel.
BK Pari

hanuman · Joined: 23 Jun 2004 Posts: 174

BKry,

Indeed, it was. However, the Heaven on Earth atmosphere was receeding significantly at the time of Atlantis. The negativity was becoming the part of the lives of many souls. Atlantis is submerged under the Atlantic Ocean. Some parts of Europe, South America, Africa, North America and the West Indies were part of Atlantis. There was also the civilization of Lemuria or Mu which existed in the current Asia Pacific region.
_________________
Om Shanti,
To my brothers and sisters.

Love to you all,
Errol bhai

bkry · Joined: 17 Apr 2004 Posts: 113 Location: Malaysia

Dear Hanuman,

I understand what you are trying to say. Soon after my above post, I had remembered seeing a map on Atlantis. I am not sure if there are more than one version as to the land mass of Atlantis but I saw a map which must be relating to the places which you have stated above. Actually, I saw a map once (in the golden subtle region) while I was in a good stage. The map had looked similar to the map of Atlantis in the sense that there was only one continent (one land mass that was surrounded by water) but it included India and (if I was not mistaken) there were land mass all around, towards the south and east of India as well.

It was the land mass that would be in an emerged state at the beginning of the Golden Age when the land masses would be still moving. Anyway, there would be a lot of land movements at the end of the cycle and at the beginning of the Copper Age. So, I had formed the opinion that it would be better to throw these thoughts out of my mind because of the uncertainty. As BKs we are trained to observe everything as detached observers. We can have a lot of test papers while doing this but the practice makes us more powerful and it enables us to enjoy a powerful link to God. Since I had pushed all that I knew of Atlantis out of my mind, I had made the remarks as in my above post. However, if I am not mistaken, a lot of the stories about Atlantis reminded me about the heavenly world that had got buried under the earth. Maybe, Man had tried to re-create the Heavenly world and had considered Atlantis as that heavenly world "re-created". What do you think?
_________________
God's angel.
BK Pari

hanuman · Joined: 23 Jun 2004 Posts: 174

BKry,

I have the impression that Atlantis was the tail end of Treta Yug emerging into Dwapar Yug. It was not a perfect Heaven On Earth at that time. There were those in Atlantis who felt that free will from God meant acts of negativity. There were those who felt that free will from God meant a life of spiritual development and good karma.
_________________
Om Shanti,
To my brothers and sisters.

Love to you all,
Errol bhai

bkry · Joined: 17 Apr 2004 Posts: 113 Location: Malaysia

Dear Hanuman,

You know I had just come across a book on Atlantis which I had got a few years ago but which I have not read yet because I had been busy. I started reading a paragraph just now where it was said, "Greek poets, such as Hesiod in the eighth century BC, speak of the 'golden race' that flourished before the rise of the present gods. The golden people lived free from care, feeding on the bounty nature without disease or decrepitude. ... Then Zeus (Jupiter in Roman parlance) seized power and the golden world ended. A lesser humanity was taught the arts of life by Prometheus, one of the Titans or elder deities, and Zeus punished him for it. ....."

You know, after my last posting here, I had been thinking of experiences of past births which I was having for a few years after I came to gyan. I recalled of how as a little child (during the Confluence of the Silver Age and the Copper Age) my parents and the other elders had told me to stay away from the people who were inferior because they did not have the spiritual strength of being a deity anymore and whose conduct was therefore improper. I saw visions where the deity souls who had come into the corporeal world at the end of the Silver Age had begun to behave like monkeys and of how their spiritual strength had quickly changed into one of inferior quality which was not divine / deity-like, i.e they became ordinary.

As a child I was still like a deity and I could only smile. But as I grew up, it was as if the deity quality in me was also diminishing. I remembered one instance, when I came into the consciousness of a past life, when there was a huge group of people looking at me and I was looking at them. We were not talking but I understood what they were expressing. They were of the view that the sciences were the cause why the earthquakes etc were taking place through which our kingdoms were getting pulled into the ground. There was sadness in the air even though the sadness was not felt in an intense manner like how it can be felt now. Actually, I have seen other visions where it was obvious that the sciences were definitely not the cause for these earthquakes etc. The scientific instruments and the powerful scientists of that time confirmed it but this was not believed by some people.
_________________
God's angel.
BK Pari