XBK Chat (unofficial archive)

jim brady · Joined: 13 Jul 2005 Posts: 19

Have posted this elsewhere but would like to hear what the BK’s have to say (having being kindly prompted by someone called Arjuna):

“For me, one of the core issues in Raja Yoga is population size. If the figure is completely inaccurate then what else is nonsense; is it all a load of baloney? If some investigative journalist was to get hold of this discrepancy he could poke a whole heap of fun at the entire movement. Is this why the Brahma Kumaris is such a secretive organisation, they are unwilling to account for their beliefs? Is this why they are so incognito and reluctant to publish their philosophy and be fully transparent on their history. Is this why the inner circle always keep the wagons in a circle? Why has no effort been made to get God to clarify the population issue? Does the so-called deity behind the organisation not care about confusion and ambiguity? Is the Supreme teacher only a lecturer who refuses to be questioned and demands blind faith?

The only response I’ve got to the issue from the representatives within the organisation is a kind of nervous twitchy laughter and an attempt to turn the tables on me by making out that the question is somewhat unworthy of beings seeking spiritual enlightenment, or that there were problems with the translation, or that it’s not possible for humans to accurately measure population – they could be out by many hundreds of millions, or that the figure was never meant to be taken literally – that it’s only a very rough guide, or that it was never stated to be 5.5 billion, that it’s really 5 or 6 or something, or that you ask too many questions, or it doesn’t really matter, or let’s talk about something else, or ‘I’m too busy getting myself perfect to worry about such trivia’.

1980 world population 4,000,000,000…..God says “max population is 5,500,000,000”
1993 world population 5,500,000,000…..God says “max population is 5,500,000,000”
2005 world population 6,400,000,000…..God says “max population is 5,500,000,000 plus millions of other quickie souls which are sort of like little bugs that don’t live long which I forgot to mention..oops! In other words the original figure is meaningless…I should have kept my big mouth shut”

Try visualise a cartoon with God sitting at his desk, Brahma on the chair in front of him. God is holding his head in his hands saying, ' Tell me one more time EXACTLY what you said to those people???????????????????’”

I received the following reply:

Quote:
The BK position on (this issue) is, of course, absurd, nonsensical and contrary to the plain truth and common sense. It's easy for some to get hooked on the "God" and "purification" thing - and the "bliss" derived therefrom. What takes real courage however is the ability to stand back and examine things in the cold hard light of rationality and evidence. Many would collapse if they did that, as they have invested their whole being in a lie. So they avoid, evade, obfuscate, trivialise and rationalise. They keep shifting the goalpost - flies and mosquitoes, indeed! This from a "God" who loves and respects all. It's pathetic.

Guest · Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 7:10 pm Post subject:

Om shanti Bhai!

What number would satisfy your doubts?

or better yet what answer would you like to receive?

I hope you find what your looking for.

Take Care,

Guest · Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 10:57 pm Post subject:

Dear Jim, Omshanti. Thanks for starting this thread in the BK section. The BK/PBK response to your question has already been given by a few PBKs. I only want to add a few words.
You wrote, "For me, one of the core issues in Raja Yoga is population size. If the figure is completely inaccurate then what else is nonsense; is it all a load of baloney? ..............Why has no effort been made to get God to clarify the population issue? Does the so-called deity behind the organisation not care about confusion and ambiguity? Is the Supreme teacher only a lecturer who refuses to be questioned and demands blind faith?"

I cannot comment about the remarks you have made about the BKs, but as PBKs we believe that the Supreme Soul Shiva who made certain statements regarding the population of the world in some of the murlis has not gone back to Paramdham after 1969 (after the demise of Brahma Baba), but is still present in a corporeal form to give clarifications on such versions.
The question that you have raised now was also posed before him and the clarification that was given by him was that although more than 5.5 billion human souls (even upto 7 billion souls) take birth by the end of Iron Age, the role of the human souls beyond the 5.5 billion mark is like that of the mosquitoes, which take birth, live for some time and then die. You can find many such human beings taking birth in many parts of the world (especially Asia and Africa), whose existence is no better than mosquitoes. Even in the murlis Baba has mentioned that there are many dogs in the rich houses that have better facilities than many human beings. So although human souls beyond the 5.5 billion mark take birth their existence is not worth accounting for. But still they are actors on this world drama stage. They experience the sato (pure), rajo (semi-pure) and tamo (impure) stages within the short time period of their life.

God is not shying away from questions but is readily available (in corporeal form) to give answers. Accepting the answers is upto each individual. You can also try.

With regards,
On Godly service,
Arjuna

jim brady · Joined: 13 Jul 2005 Posts: 19

Arjuna

Guest · Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 7:23 am Post subject:

Omshanthi!
Jim,

Though you have posed this question to Arjuna I would like to tell what I have heard. Baba said the population will be between 5.5 billion and 7 billions. out of this only 5.5 billion only have the power of churning the knowledge hence they are considered as human beings. Rest o f them or not having the power even to churn. Though they have the costume of a human being because of lack of churning they are not considered as humans.

Dharani.

Guest · Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 7:25 am Post subject:

Dear Jim,
Omshanti. The replies to your first question is as follows:

Q.No.1. I know little or nothing about PBK's, are you some kind of breakaway organisation, do you still have contact with Madhuban, how many followers do you have, where are you based, do you have contact with Westerners, are you regarded as renegades by Madhuban, could you give me a brief history or direct me

Ans: To briefly give an introduction about PBKs, I would like to say that this Godly family is an offshoot of BKs, which has got revealed in 1976. BKs believe that the incorporeal God Shiva established the BK organization through Dada Lekhraj (Brahma Baba) in 1936-37 and narrated murlis through him till his demise in 1969. After that the BKs believe that the Supreme Soul Shiva returned to the soul world and the soul of Dada Lekhraj Brahma (along with its subtle body) has not taken rebirth and has become a resident of the subtle world. They also believe that the Supreme Soul Shiva and the soul of Dada Lekhraj Brahma together enter into the body of BK Dadi Gulzar every year on pre-determined dates. This process has been going on since 1969.

The PBKs believe that although the BK organization began with the divine visions caused to Dada Lekhraj at Sindh, Pakistan, but he could not understand the meanings of the same. After consulting many gurus, when he failed to get any answers, he went to Calcutta to his business partner, who was senior to him and more experienced and faithful. There he got the satisfactory answers to his questions when Shiva entered into the body of that partner and then explained the meanings of the divine visions. Two ladies were also involved in this process. These two ladies and two men formed the first Godly family. Thus Om Mandali was established. Initially knowledge used to be given by Shiva through the partner of Dada Lekhraj. But after the partner and the two ladies departed from the yagya and also left their bodies, the entire responsibility of the yagya came on the shoulders of Dada Lekhraj Brahma. Thus incorporeal Shiva began to enter into his body and started narrating murlis till his demise in 1969.

After the demise of Dada Lekhraj the soul of his business partner in his next birth as Shri Veerendra Deo Dixit in a village named Kampil of Farrukhabad District in U.P. State of Northern India re-enters the BK family. Shiva starts entering into him from 1969 onwards but He is revealed to the Brahmin family on the basis of unique clarifications of the murlis and pictures in 1976. The new medium of Shiva is called Shankar on the basis of knowledge and the tasks performed through him. He will only be revealed as Prajapita Brahma at the end of the Confluence age when all the souls receive inheritance through him. Thus the Advance party (or Adhyatmik Ishwariya Vishwavidyalay or AIVV) was established and its members are called Prajapita Brahmakumar-kumaris or PBKs in short.

The BKs do not consider Shankar to be the medium of Shiva and do not recognize AIVV as Advance Party. They believe that only the BK souls who have left their bodies from the yagya, like Didi, Dadis, etc. constitute the Advance Party, who will give birth to 9,00,00 deities. But PBKs have been told by Shivababa that nearly 2.25 lakh couples will remain after the destructin, who will give birth to another 4.5 children. Together they will constitute the initial 9 lakh population of deities.

The answers to the remaining questions will be given in due course.
With regards,
Arjuna

Guest · Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 11:35 am Post subject:

Dear Jim,
Omshanti. With regard to your second question, "If God is readily available for questions then can he clue me in on the anomaly of a ridiculously short cycle which is completely at odds with geology, anthropology, ancient history etc. " I had given a reply to BK Prasanna on the same topic, which is reproduced below for your information.
With regards,
Arjuna
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Dear Prasanna bhai, Omshanti.
Welcome to the forum. As regards the 5000 years cycle I wish to say that throughout the world religion is believed to be more a matter of faith than scientific understanding, but still Baba’s knowledge can very much be tallied with history and science. I know that it is difficult for a science student to immediately accept Baba’s theory of 5000 years cycle. But on the basis of murlis its comparison with scientific and historical data, I personally believe that this cycle is possible. We in advance party have been told by Shivbaba that since there will not be any palaces etc. (as believed by the BKs) in the Golden and Silver Ages and that the deities will live only in natural surroundings (gardens), there is no recorded history of those ages (2500 years). The human civilization in non-deity form started from Copper Age onwards (2500 years ago) which is recorded in the history. The recorded history of human civilization may not exactly tally with the knowledge of 5000 years drama but is nevertheless comparable with it.

From my comparative study of various religions vis-à-vis BK knowledge, I have come to the conclusion that among the theories of origin of Earth and mankind propagated by all major religions, the knowledge given by Baba is nearest to the scientific or historical theories, if not exactly the same. Western religions believe that the world was created in 7 days , while Vedas conceive Universe to be like a cosmic cow or horse or man (purusha) which was disintegrated to produce the mountains, rivers, earth etc. Another Hindu theory talks of Prajapati, the creator, who created man, deities and earth. I am cent percent sure that these theories can never be proved scientifically or tallied with history. Only the BK/PBK theory is nearest to the scientific and historical theories. And I am sure that if scientists and historians work together in this direction, Baba’s knowledge can be tallied with science and history to a greater extent.

History speaks about the oldest civilization of the earth, i.e. the Indus Valley Civilization having originated about 2500 B.C.E. It is now 2005 A.D. So the time since the beginning of civilization according to history comes to around 4500 years (2500+2000). But according to historians the first books of human civilization, i.e. the Vedas originated around 1500 B.C.E. So, the actual recorded history comes to approximately 1500+2000=3500 years. If you tally it with Baba’s knowledge, Baba says that the recorded history is of 2500 years. So isn’t it more nearer to actual history than the imaginary theories about creation propounded by most of the religions, which is blindly being believed by almost entire population of the world?

If the above historical figures are belived then Hinduism (or the Vedic religion) is supposed to have started 4500 years ago, while Baba says that the ancient deity religion was established 5000 years ago. According to historical beliefs the legendary Prophet Abraham, who founded Judaism (Islam, according to Baba) came around 1800 B.C.E (but this is subject to debate because the stories mentioned in the old testament, which mentions about the Prophets prior to Christ including Abraham, is not a historical document). Baba says that Abraham came around 250 B.C.E. Buddha is believed to have come around 563 B.C.E. (250 B.C.E, as per Baba). Both Baba and history believes Christ to have come 2000 years ago. The time of arrival of rest of the religious fathers talles with the knowledge. So, even from the angle of time of arrival of various religious fathers and establishment of various religions, Baba’s knowledge is very near to historical theories. The above historical facts can be verified from history books. I can suggest one or two books if you really want to verify my statements.

One more point to be noted is that while all other religions do not allow any debate or discussion on the actual religious texts (they call it blasphemy), you are free to ask questions regarding Baba's knowledge (more in PBKs than BKs). And since Shivbaba is practically present on Earth, you could ask any kind of question to get clarification. Many discussion vcds released by the Advance party are a proof to this fact.

So, based on the above research, it is upto you to decide whether to leave Baba and return to the imaginary beliefs of other religions bordering on blindfaith or to continue to be benefited through the knowledge (at least art of living, values.etc. in your words).

With regards,
ON Godly service,
Arjuna"

Guest · Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 12:13 pm Post subject:

Omshanti. Jim bhai had raised a few questions regarding the mention of 550 crores and 700 crores as the human population in the murlis. In this connection the replies received from Baba are given below in red letters:

Prashna: Jab 550 karor ki sankhya sahi nahi thi toh fir Baba nay pehley yah sankhya bataayi hi kyun?

Uttar: 550karod to manan , chintan, manthan kerne wale maushyaon ki sankhya batai , keede , makadon ki taraha aye or mare ,aise jad buddhi manushyaon ki sankhya thode hi batai .

Question: Why was the 5.5 figure given originally by Baba in the murlis if it wasn't strictly true?

Ans: The figure of 550 crores is the number of human beings who think and churn. The number of human beings with a non-living intellect, who come and die like insects and spiders has not been mentioned.

Prashna: Aapney jo kaha hai ki “700 karor tak bhi” aatmaen hai, yah baat kahaan say aayi? Yah merey liye nayi baat hai.

Uttar: Ye baat murli se ayi , murli point , tareek dhoondna to baba ke bachon ki kaam hai , research workers ka kaam hai Baba ka kaam thode hi hai .

Question: Where does your "even up to 7 billion" come from? That's a new one for me

Ans: This matter has come from murli. Searching for the murli point and its date is the job of Baba's children, it is the job of research workers. It is not the job of Baba.

With regards,
On Godly service,
Arjuna

Guest · Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 2:44 pm Post subject:

Om shanti Bhai!

This is why I have been impressed with the advance knowledge compared to the bk knowledge or any other form of spiritual teachings.

If one has a question it can be answered.

Unlike my experiences with certain bk’s where they look at you like you’re the devil or try to avoid the question all together or better yet blame Maya.

Hopefull bhai Jim will find more peace with this answer.

Take Care bhais,

Guest · Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:24 pm Post subject:

Dear Papaya bhai, Omshanti. I have requested some PBKs to do the research about the murli point regarding mention of 700 crore population of souls. As soon as I receive the point(s), I shall post it on this forum. Alternatively if any other member comes across such a murli point, they can post it here for the information of others.
With regards,
On Godly service,
Arjuna

Guest · Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:11 am Post subject:

Omshanti.
With the efforts of a few PBKs the concerned murli point which contains the mention of 700 crore as the population of human souls has been found. This is a revised sakar murli dated 2.10.71 narrated by Shivbaba through Dada Lekhraj Brahma.

"Now there are 500 crores. It may grow up to 6-7 hundred crores until the destruction takes place."

"Is samay hain 500 crore. 6-7 sau karod bhi ho jaayengey. Jab tak vinaash ho."

It may kindly be noted that since the above murli point is from a revised murli it must have been originally narrated by Shivbaba through Dada Lekhraj before his demise in 1969.

So, all the controversy about Shivbaba speaking lies about the human population should come to an end with this. With regards,
On Godly service,
Arjuna