Conception, pregnancy, childbirth and abortion

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alladin

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3-4 months

Post07 Mar 2007

I also heard from the BKs about the 3-4 month story. It seems to be scientifically confirmed that after that time (when soul enters?) the foetus starts growing much quicker into the form of a baby. This is why in many countries where abortion is legal, the deadline is around 12 weeks.
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Mr Green

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Post07 Mar 2007

Except for the recent footage filmed inside the womb showing the baby being active far earlier than originally thought.
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ex-l

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Re: Abortion - * sensitive *

Post07 Mar 2007

bansy wrote:Can someone remind, according to BK, at what month/week of the foetal status does a soul enter the womb?

I cant remember any specific date, just the general statements above.

But ... I can specifically remember the Senior Sisters in London, Jayanti et al, advising one Sister that had got pregnant just before or after coming into Gyan to have an abortion as it was better for her spiritual growth ... Destruction was coming soon ... pull on the intellect etc. She did not.

There was is one article out there quoting the BKs advising a pro-choice stance, each case to be taken on its own merits etc. I think as the PR effect has grown, they have polished and mellowed a bit on their pronouncements. But what they think of a Sister actually doing the necessary to get in that state ... I cannot imagine that has changed. If they were well advised, they should keep right out of the arena and stick to their own. See also; link
Hinduism Today wrote:Several Hindu institutions have shared their positions on abortion recently. The Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University does not take a formal unchanging political or religious stance on the issue of abortion. They advise that each case requires unique consideration. The final decision will be based on a long series of choices made by the woman on her lifestyle, morals and values. Usually, the choices that created the unwanted pregnancy in the first place have been irrational or emotional ones, not the mature commitment motherhood needs. The Brahma Kumaris counsel those facing an abortion decision, both man and woman, to understand that by abortion they do not escape responsibility for their actions. When both the parents have fully understood the seriousness of the choice, the University would support the right to make their own decision.

The Brahma Kumaris view the body as a physical vehicle for the immortal soul, and therefore the issue is not "pro-life" or "anti-life" but a choice between the amount of suffering caused to the souls of the parents and child in either course, abortion or motherhood. They view existing legislation in America as fair and reasonable, with the proviso that abortion after the 4th month should be avoided except in medical emergencies, since in their view the soul enters the fetus in the 4th to 5th month.

ISKCON, the Hare Krishnas, are quoted as saying the 1.3 million abortions done in America last year "a kind of doublethink," whereby people deny the status of humanity to the fetus. "According to Vedic literature an eternal individual soul inhabits the body of every living creature...The soul enters the womb at the time of conception".

The only two yogi/psychic friends I know that had any experience of pregnancy both reckoned there was some sort of connection right from conception and that they could tell conception had happen. I would agree with although perhaps the soul does not enter the body. My guess there is some sublte or astral connection to the subtle bodies of the mother and that the soul "enters", and becomes independent in the babies body, gradually. This is pure a mix of the theoretic and experiential and I have no references or back up for it. I do not think it is a black and white, "its 90 days so in I go" affair.

Mothers on the forum ... can you qualify your own experiences?
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di

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Post08 Mar 2007

Well, here is where you find out a little more about me. As a registered nurse I spent some time working in the operating theatre and recovery room at a private hospital (fully acredited) doing nothing but assisting with terminations. At approximately 23 weeks the neurological system actually connects to the brain, thus allowing sensations, pain etc. Previous to this gestation time, it is considered the foetus has no sensation.

Terminations (abortions) carry a much higher risk of complications after 12 weeks. They often (and always after 16 weeks) require an additional drug prior to theatre administered over a few hours to begin the induction of an abortion, then continued on in the operating room. It is not pleasant to say the least, even though personally I am not pro abortion other than terminations in exceptional cases. Given that though, I always gave my best. No one can sit judgement on situations like this and the majority of the time these poor women are in agony over their decisions, if they go ahead they have the guilt they carry for the rest of their lives and desparately need our emotional and medical support. A difficult job.

From my experience here, I cannot agree that at 12 weeks or any given gestation the soul suddenly appears in a foetus, rather that it is a continual growth. Maybe at the change from embryo to foetus is significant??? I do not know. It is by far one of the most confronting circumstances. My personal opinion and experience gives me the view a foetus is a stage of growth, as all of our years are until the day we die. Just because a foetus is dependant on its mother for survival at this stage, all people of all ages can become dependant on others for survival, it doesnt mean they are soul-less at any stage. I came to terms with my job there knowing that I was not supporting inflicting of pain and torture on a helpless babe. There is no neurological function before this time as I said, and if we were terminating towards the 20 weeks I would excuse myself from theatre and work in recovery. I was not the only RN to do this.

A very difficult question raised and no clear answer. (I just know I gave support and love to some women who desparately needed it without bias). A place to open one's mind and heart and to shed pre-concieved ideas. My family was horrified I worked there. But here I agree with the BKs. It is a difficult decision and the whole circumstances need to be looked at as it varies from one individual to another and whatever the choice, these people need as much support and ongoing care as can possibly be given.

Love Di.
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bansy

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Post08 Mar 2007

If every living organism has a soul (including the friendly amoeba), then wouldn't the soul be actually in every living cell, and the sum of all the cells in a human body will eventually make a complete human soul. Does the growth of the physical entity also grow the metaphysical entity, energy creation and formation as per se.

Looking at it from a death point of view, if the body ceases to function, this means the cells all die, and then the soul "leaves" the body, as per BK Gyan. Looking from the birth point of view, so at the point of conception, the sperm cell and ovum are two active entities and the combination automatically creates the fusion, division and subdivision process, then what is causing this process ? So when the cells fuse, it is the first step in the creation of the body of the human body, so the soul can enter, albeit dormant, in the same way it can leave when those cells die. It could be that the soul does not trigger its identity until after 3-4 months.

An unclinical guess. Anyone seen a pinhole camera video of the creation and development of a baby whilst in the womb? It's quite "miracle" feat.
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di

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Post08 Mar 2007

I agree totally Bansy, and I was trying to tactfully say much the same thing. I don't believe, and I haven't seen, that there is any one stage of development that would suggest where the soul enters the body. At 12 weeks the foetus is far more developed than most people would think. I lasted 12 months there, and couldn't cope with it anymore because I believe at the moment of conception life begins, and with it a soul, and it just became too difficult.

Whatever the BKs reasons are for being non-critical and supportive, I have to applaud them for taking this stance. I do however find it very confusing that they can support terminations, yet simple innocent things to my mind are so taboo and make people impure. Please excuse me as I do not have the background, but is not one of the aspects of being vegetarian to do with opposition to killing?
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ex-l

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Post08 Mar 2007

Can I ask you again, what is your personal experience? Without any of the over emotional projection about babies and pregnancy, one would have thought that if another soul, a fully independent spirit personality, entered your physical and subtle body (i.e. when the child is in your womb), you might have felt it.

Why would it be any less than the spirits entering the mediums? The majority of spirit souls entering wombs are not "pure", peaceful or higher enlightened beings and so one would have thought make their presence felt. One might also ask the question of someone that had a termination.

What this line of thought would leads to is a secondary question of how and where does the soul connect and root itself into the physical body ... why does it only effect thought, speech and actions when it is, apparently, rooted into the brain box rather than the womb box. And, if that is so, how and where do spirit souls enter and affect others body during possession or mediumship?

This is a very mechanical and demanding line of thought that is utterly untouched within BKWSU teachings. The Brahmakmaris just gloss over it quickly and broadly and rely on "experiencing Baba", "not thinking about things", brush aside such pertinent questions as unproductive ego and Maya on behalf of the asker with no benefit because they they received all their high status and benefit without asking ... and don't see to know. Not even Janki who had a kid. Of course, at the core of it is the question, is there as spirit or soul at all? And beside it is the PBK/Murli question that are they actually that high, mighty and wise after all?

What roots a soul to a body? They Brahmakumaris would just answer and teach; "body-consciousness ... karma". But how, when and to where? Abrahma Kumar gave a link to an interesting video by some spiritual teachers that gave more details about the spirit body and so on. Mike George in one of his meditations spoke about not being but "creating a point of consciousness in the center of the forehead" (personally, I don't feel like I am in the forehead).

This line of question then leads off topic ... but Mata's please. Your experience of being "possessed" by a spirit in your womb. If there is no experience, then fair enough. That is the experience.

I would say too that if Baba and the Brahmakumaris say you can pull the trigger on a gun to kill someone in god consciousness and not suffer for it, pure for your leader's capitalistic and nationalistic sentiments, then making such a decision is on a par. So how can we also divine what is a soul-conscious decision, rather than a BKWSU socio-political decision driven by PR and status value? Saying the right thing to appear good.

The BKs said what they said, they did not say, "oh, we tell our female followers to have abortions because the end of the world is coming and to have a child is a pull on the intellect and stops you doing meditation and service to gain a high status in the Golden Age"

I also add to the topic that not all pregancies are merely "unwanted", some are due to deliberate and impersonal violation by psychopathic attackers during wars or every day in the streets and villages. You could answer that this is merely the "karma" of the girl or women involved and that they should face it. That is the position of the anti-abortionists ... and takes the question off into the deep end of the equally superficially taught within the BKWSU, "how karma works".
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arjun

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Post21 Apr 2007

Dear ex-l,
Omshanti. I remember that you had asked in one of the threads about the social conditions in India at the time of the beginning of the Yagya. Since I cannot trace the thread, I am writing about it here because the subject is relevant to this thread also. I have come across a Murli point which mentions about the social condition prevalent in India at that time and is very much applicable in the present time also.

Pehley vilaayat may mataon ka martaba bahut tha. Vahaan bachhi paida hoti toh bahut khushi manaatey hain, yahaan bachhi paida hoti hai toh khatiya ulta kar detey hain. Birthday bhi nahee manaatey. Vaisey kanyaon ka kanhaiyya gaaya hua hai.” (Brahmakumariyon dwara prakaashit revised Sakar Murli dinaank 13.04.07, pg 3)

“Earlier, in the foreign countries, mothers used to be given a lot of respect. Whenever a daughter is born, they celebrate a lot. Here, when a girl child takes birth, they turn the cot upside down (i.e. get upset). They do not even celebrate birth day. Otherwise, ‘Kanhaiyya (Krishna) of virgins’ is famous.” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 13.04.07, pg 3 published by BKs in Hindi, narrated by ShivBaba through Brahma Baba, translated by a PBK)

In spite of very strict laws prohibiting ultrasound tests to ascertain the sex of the foetus, the same goes on at a large scale secretly. The news channels keep reporting such cases from time to time. In many of the states in India (especially in North India) the number of females every 1000 males has decreased so much that it has become difficult for men to find suitable brides.

In such a social condition, the empowerment of women by BKWSU and AIVV is really appreciable. The social condition of women when the Yagya began was even worse. So, the courage shown by the Sisters and mothers to devote their life for spiritual cause is also appreciable.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun
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arjun

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Re: Conception, pregnancy, childbirth and abortion

Post03 Aug 2008

Omshanti. Here is a story that has attracted national (and possibly international) attention in print and electronic media since many days. It is a story of Niketa Mehta who has petitioned the Court to abort her foetus which is now about 25 weeks old. The initial medical report says that a sonogram has shown a complete heart blockage with low ventricular rate. But the Indian law does not permit abortion after 20th week.

25-week-old foetus' fate hangs in balance

It would be interesting to know Shivsena Bhai's views on this issue since he has knowledge of the medical field.
From a BK/PBK point of view a soul might have already entered the foetus.
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Re: Conception, pregnancy, childbirth and abortion

Post03 Aug 2008

arjun wrote: Omshanti. Here is a story that has attracted national (and possibly international) attention in print and electronic media since many days. It is a story of Niketa Mehta who has petitioned the Court to abort her foetus which is now about 25 weeks old. The initial medical report says that a sonogram has shown a complete heart blockage with low ventricular rate. But the Indian law does not permit abortion after 20th week.
It would be interesting to know Shivsena Bhai's views on this issue since he has knowledge of the medical field.
From a BK/PBK point of view a soul might have already entered the foetus.

Dear arjun Bhai.

I do not understand why Niketa Mehta went to court to get permission to abort her abnormal foetus; she could have gone to any private nursing home and any gynecologist would have done the abortion without any fuss. Today, abortion is perfectly legal before 20 weeks, and even after 20 weeks if there is an abnormal foetus then also there is no need to go to any court to obtain any permission. All it needs is a certification from 2 practising gynecologists that the mother is carrying an abnormal foetus and the whole matter could be solved without the interference of court. Recently my friend's daughter came to know that the 7th month baby she was carrying had spina bifida and after consulting 2 gynacs she opted for an abortion and she had no need to get permission from court. So I see no reason why anyone should approach the court to seek permission to terminate a pregnancy whether 20 weeks or more, unless maybe one wants to get the limelight and cheap publicity.

As regards when a soul enters the foetus; it varies from 5th month to 6th month and the mother is the best judge as to when she first felt the first kick of the baby inside the womb (that is when we can say that soul has entered the foetus).

shivsena.
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bansy

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Re: Conception, pregnancy, childbirth and abortion

Post03 Aug 2008

There is debate here about when a soul enters a feotus. Is there a debate when a soul can leave a body ?

When is a foetus declared clinically "alive" and when is a body clinically "dead" ?

Can a soul leave a body 2 months before a body it is declared clinically dead , or after 1 month when it is declared ? How about the case of people in vegetive state ?

Think also about those folks who were declared clinically dead, and then comeback and jump up, to live on to tell their tale of having seen and touched the "light".
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bansy

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Re: Conception, pregnancy, childbirth and abortion

Post04 Aug 2008

Following from previous post, the 3-4-5 months theory of soul entering foetus is very wishywashy.
As in the case of DadiP being in the Subtle Region when she is reborn as a boy. Is that boy clinically dead during the time when the soul is out of his body ? Likewise, is a foetus "dead" before a soul enters it ?

So shivsena Bhai, I do not agree a "kick" from the foetus constitutes that the soul has just entered a body. If so, then we will see Braham Baba (Lekhraj Kirpalani) and ShivBaba (Virendra Dev Dixit) twitching and having fits all the time. Maybe they do ?

How are children going to be made in the Golden Age ? OK, in Gyan it is by power of Yoga. So then at what time in the process of this Yoga does the soul enter the new baby ? Does it enter it after several months of post Yoga (not post- sex) Are mothers going to have pre-yoga-menstrual cycles and post-yoga-depression disorders ? Or is a baby just going to be born with soul intact complete after one second of Yoga, even quicker than making instant pot noodle ?
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arjun

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Re: Conception, pregnancy, childbirth and abortion

Post04 Aug 2008

shivsena wrote:I do not understand why Niketa Mehta went to court to get permission to abort her abnormal foetus; she could have gone to any private nursing home and any gynecologist would have done the abortion without any fuss. Today, abortion is perfectly legal before 20 weeks, and even after 20 weeks if there is an abnormal foetus then also there is no need to go to any court to obtain any permission. All it needs is a certification from 2 practising gynecologists that the mother is carrying an abnormal foetus and the whole matter could be solved without the interference of court.

Dear Brother,
Omshanti and thanks for the reply. May be she did not get proper guidance from her gynecologist or as you say she may have done it to get into limelight. There was also a discussion on TV where someone was suggesting that if the child is born with defects, then the Government should take care of the child's health related expenses.
Arjun
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ex-l

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Re: Conception, pregnancy, childbirth and abortion

Post04 Aug 2008

arjun wrote:There was also a discussion on TV where someone was suggesting that if the child is born with defects, then the Government should take care of the child's health related expenses.

Why ... and how in a country like India where so many live below the poverty line.

To this topic, may be we can add 'Euthanasia' (assisted suicide or mercy killing), or even eugenics, from a spiritual perspective. In nature, such incidents would just not survive. By "the Laws of Karma" you would have to argue it was their fault/destiny and not a good one. Just because some nations or families can afford to support such cases, should they?

At times it is necessary to be dispassionate and put aside individuals for the sake of the whole. Of course, in Bharat, families would just as likely sell or lease them off as begging devices, see the rat people. (OK, this case is actually in Pakistan but the same does goes for India).
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arjun

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Re: Conception, pregnancy, childbirth and abortion

Post05 Aug 2008

shivsena wrote:Today, abortion is perfectly legal before 20 weeks, and even after 20 weeks if there is an abnormal foetus then also there is no need to go to any court to obtain any permission. All it needs is a certification from 2 practising gynecologists that the mother is carrying an abnormal foetus and the whole matter could be solved without the interference of court.

Dear Brother,
You said that it was legal to abort even after 20 weeks but the Court has rejected Niketa's plea.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Mumb ... 329928.cms

Is there any other provision in the law that you're talking about?

Anyways, it is good to know that the Jaslok Hospital in Bombay has offered to bear the expenses of Niketa's baby. I wish the mother and the baby good luck.
Arjun
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