Birth of Krishna / Reproduction in Heaven

Please forgive my humour in the face of such gravity but I must say, I quite like a bit of oral love myself

Am I a deity?

You know what Mr Green, I really don't think anyone knows. Everyone interprets the Murli in there own way anyway. A true meaning for one person is just a symbolic meaning for another.

Yes; this is what the conventional teaching of Advanced Knowledge that bindishiv played the the role of mother through' Dada Lekhraj Brahma; but nowhere in the Murlis there is any indication to this concept; also I do not understand how can there be any motherly sanskars in a bindi soul who has no emotions and no attachment and no feelings and no body-consciousness for 5000 years and who rests in a remote Paramdham for 5000 years; suddenly He comes on this earth to become the mother first and then bap-teacher-Satguru. This concept just beats me.

Actions are higher than words. Playing the part of Mother in practical is nothing to be spoken/written about. It is the feelings of pure unconditional love that any soul who went in front of Brahma Baba experienced. One of the 8 powers is that of 'the power to adjust'. An intelligent personality can determine what form to take as per requirements of the situation.

Omshanti. I am reproducing below a summary of the questions raised by Shivsena Bhai on the issue of procreation in the Golden Age and the answers given by Father Shiv (through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit). With regards,
OGS,
Arjun
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Prashna: Yadi hum kahtey hain ki Satyug may yogbal say santaan utpatti hoti hai toh vahaan aatma aur parmatma ke beech koi Yoga arthaat sambandh nahi hota. Toh yogbal say santaan utpatti kaisey hoti hai?
Uttar: Aatmik sthiti me rahna Yoga nehi hai kya? Satyug me mukh ke pyar se hi santaan utpatti hoti hai, jaise maur, maurni.

Prashna: Doosri baat yadi 2500 varsh tak bhrasht indriyon dwara santaan utpatti nahi honi hai toh prakriti nay yeh indriyan kya keval 2500 saal baad use karney ke liye dee hain?
Uttar: Satyug me kaam vikaar ka maar kernewala ang na ke baraabar hoga, bhrashta indriyon se sukh bhogne ki vaasna merg hojata hai. Sreshtha indriyan arthat gyanedriyon se sukh bhogne ki kamna baniraheti hai. Chahe shreshtha indriya ho chahe bhrashtha indriya ho ek hi kaam keliye to use nehi hoti hai, ek indriya anek kaam kerti hai.

Prashna: Dwapar kee aadi may kaam vikaar pehley aaya ya deh abhimaan?
Uttar: Dehabhimaan.

Prashna: Dwapar kee aadi may kaun sikhaata hai ki santaan utpatti ke liye bhrasht indriyon ka upyog karna hai?
Uttar:Ibrahim, Ibrahim ki adharmurt & beej roop atma.

Prashna: Yadi kaamendriyon ko bhrasht indriyan aur aankh aur honthon ko shreshtha indriyan maana jaata hai toh fir shivling kee pooja kyun kee jaati hai?
Uttar: Shivling koi garbh dhaaran karane ki yaadgaar hai kya? Ye jo shivling hai, bachhon ko urdhareta banane aya hua hai ya shakti ksheen kerney? Shivling to is samai ka yaadgaar hai.

Prashna: Baba yah bhi kahtey hain ki aankhein sabsey criminal hain fir aankhein Satyug may shreshth indriyan kaisey ban jaati hai?
Uttar: Vastavik aankhen gyanendriyan hai. Lekin abhi to saari hi indriyan criminal hai. Sirf aankhen hi nehi. sabhi ki dristhi, vritti bhrasht indriyon taraf jarahi hai, isiliye criminal kaha gaya. Lekin gyanendriyaan, karmendriyon se jyada shrestha. Satyug me gyanendriyon se kaam liya jata hai.

Prashna: Santaan utpatti ke liye shukraanu aur aandaanu ka Yoga hona chaahiye. Ek doctor ke roop may mai samajh nahi paaya hoon ki honthon ke milan say shukranu kis prakaar mukh say garbhaashay tak jaatey hain aur andaanu say miltey hain?
Uttar: Jab lagaataar atmik sthiti ban jaati hai to oorjaa ooper ki aur jaaeney ki swabhav ki ban jaati hai.

Question: If we say that procreation takes place through the power of Yoga in the Golden Age, then there is no Yoga, i.e. connection between a soul and the Supreme Soul there. So how does the procreation takes place through the power of Yoga?
Answer: Does being in soul conscious stage not mean Yoga? In the Golden Age, children are born through the oral love only. For. E.g. Peacock and Peahen.

Question: Secondly, if procreation is not supposed to take place for 2500 years through the sinful organs, then has the nature provided these organs to be used only after 2500 years?
Answer: The organ which causes the sexual assault will be as good as non-existent. The desire to enjoy the pleasure of impure organs will get merged. The desire for experiencing pleasures through the highest (or pure) organs, i.e. the sense organs exists. Whether it is the pure organs or the impure sex organs, they are not used just for one function. One organ performs many functions.

Question: In the beginning of the Copper Age, does the sex-lust come first or the body consciousness?
Answer: Body consciousness comes first.

Question: In the beginning of the Copper Age, who teaches us that the sinful organs are to be used for procreation?
Answer: Ibrahim; the base-like soul of Ibrahim and the seed-like soul of Ibrahim (teaches the use of impure sex-organs for the purpose of procreation)

Question: If the sex-organs are considered to be the sinful organs and the eyes and lips are considered to be the superior organs, then why is Shivling worshipped?
Answer: Is Shivling a reminder of conception? This Shivling has come to make the children urdhwareta (one, whose sexual energy rises upwards from the sex organs to the brain) or to weaken their energy? Shivling is a reminder of the present time.

Question: Baba also says that the eyes are the most criminal, then how do the eyes become the superior organs in the Golden Age?
Answer: Actual eyes are the sense organs. But now all the organs have become criminal, not only eyes. The vision, thoughts of everyone is going towards the impure sex-organs. That is why they are called criminal. But the sense organs are higher than the bodily organs. In the Golden Age sense organs are used to perform the above functions.

Question: In order to procreate there should be a connection between the sperm and the ovum. As a doctor, I am unable to understand how the meeting of lips facilitates the travel of sperms from the mouth to the womb to meet the ovum?
Answer: When we achieve constant soul conscious stage then the nature of our energy becomes that of rising upwards.

Answer: When we achieve constant soul conscious stage then the nature of our energy becomes that of rising upwards.

Dear arjun Bhai.

I feel that 100% soul conscious stage is only during the p. Sangamyug when the soul and Supreme Soul Shiva are in person. In Advance Course we were also taught that from the first day onwards in Satyug we start becoming body-conscious and our energy starts flowing downwards, as it is said that those who take 83 births are not 16* pure but their divinity is 1/4 less [ie 15 3/4*] and every succeeding generation in Satyug looses 1/4*, so that by the beginning of Silver Age all divine beings are then 14 degrees pure and so are not 100% soul-conscious.(body-consciousness is existing at the subtle level); this aspect has to be kept in mind and this is what i feel is not very clear.

Shivsena.

I feel that 100% soul conscious stage is only during the p. Sangamyug when the soul and Supreme Soul Shiva are in person.

In this you are presuming that only in 100% soul consciousness can these procreating tasks be performed, yet, it does not say 100% soul consciousness is needed, just soul consciousness. Maybe it is only when soul reaches 8* pure at end of Tretayug that the power of the soul is not enough to procreate in this way.

In this you are presuming that only in 100% soul consciousness can these procreating tasks be performed, yet, it does not say 100% soul consciousness is needed, just soul consciousness. Maybe it is only when soul reaches 8* pure at end of Tretayug that the power of the soul is not enough to procreate in this way.

Dear john Bhai.

The correct Murli point is that "Satyug mein santan yogbal se paidaa hoti hai'' (yogbal by definition means connection of the soul and Supreme Soul; only when this connection is there you receive power from Supreme Soul Shiva for conception; in Satyug this power is not there; there is no Murli which says that procreation can occur through' atmic-bal (soul power) ; So the correct word is yogbal and not soul-consciousness.

First we have to find out what is the reason for our downfall from 16* to 8* ; if we are sou-conscious 100% at the beginning of Satyug then what is the reason for our downfall in 2500 years why are we gradually subconsciously becoming body-conscious? we should not fall at all.

Some more thoughts about "Procreation in Satyug"

If "procreation through' yogbal in Satyug" means that only the female conceives through' yogbal without any contribution from the male - and this process continues for 2500 years then why does Baba provide us with partners for 20 births in golden and silver ages??

Again, it is said that there will be creation through' ''shreshta-indriya'' in Satyug and not bhrashta-indriya, then which are these shreshta-indriya? Are they the eyes and the mouth? If eyes and mouth are superior organs then why they are not worshipped in Bhakti-marg?

And if only "mukh ka pyar" (kissing) in Satyug will give way to conception; then the question arises that every time a Deity couple kisses, then there should be conception and and a new soul should be born after every kiss. Has anybody given a serious thought to this aspect of creation in Satyug!

Again the child which is born in Satyug will come out from the womb of the mother through' the normal anatomical pathway as it happens in the copper and iron age (except that there will be no labour pain at the time of delivery), then should not the route of conception be also the same? Or is there a different pathway for conception and a different pathway for delivery in Satyug ?

Kindly think about it.
shivsena.

Dear Brother shivsena,
Where is this definition that "yogbhal means the connection of the soul with the Supreme Soul from? In the Murli the example is that when we remember a mango we have Yoga with the mango. Is the mango the Supreme Soul?

The correct Murli point is that "Satyug mein santan yogbal se paidaa hoti hai'' (yogbal by definition means connection of the soul and Supreme Soul; only when this connection is there you receive power from Supreme Soul Shiva for conception; in Satyug this power is not there; there is no Murli which says that procreation can occur through' atmic-bal (soul power) ; So the correct word is yogbal and not soul-consciousness.

Yogbal or the power of Yoga is accumulated only in the Confluence Age and not in the Golden Age or Silver Age because as a deity we would not have The Knowledge of the Supreme Soul. We would only have The Knowledge of the soul. Baba says that whatever you accumulate in the Confluence Age is used by you in the next 21 births. So it is not at all wrong to say that the procreation would take place in Golden Age and Silver Age through the power of Yoga. And since the deities will be avaybhichaari in Golden Age and Silver Age, i.e. they would have relationship only with their spouses, the downfall would be negligible/very less.

First we have to find out what is the reason for our downfall from 16* to 8* ; if we are sou-conscious 100% at the beginning of Satyug then what is the reason for our downfall in 2500 years why are we gradually subconsciously becoming body-conscious? we should not fall at all.

You yourself have written in several of your posts that everything or every soul has to pass through the stages of sato, rajo and tamo during the broad drama and the Confluence Age. So I don't understand why you ask this question.

If "procreation through' yogbal in Satyug" means that only the female conceives through' yogbal without any contribution from the male - and this process continues for 2500 years then why does Baba provide us with partners for 20 births in golden and silver ages??

Baba has never said in the clarification Murlis that procreation in the Golden Age and Silver Age would not have any involvement of the male partner. He says that the 'raj' and 'veerya', i.e. the female and male sexual energy would be of the nature of rising upwards. How exactly that process of reproduction through Yogbal takes place including the physical aspects are yet to be clarified, but that does not mean that there would not be any contribution from the male partner.

Again, it is said that there will be creation through' ''shreshta-indriya'' in Satyug and not bhrashta-indriya, then which are these shreshta-indriya? Are they the eyes and the mouth? If eyes and mouth are superior organs then why they are not worshipped in Bhakti-marg?

It is not correct to say that eyes and mouth are not worshipped in the Bhaktimarg. In fact except ShivShankarBholeynath, in case of all other deities it is generally eyes only that are given the maximum importance. Wnenever idols of deities are prepared all over the world, maximum attention is paid to the eyes only. In case of ShivShankar it is the ling (phallus) that is worshipped.

And if only "mukh ka pyar" (kissing) in Satyug will give way to conception; then the question arises that every time a Deity couple kisses, then there should be conception and and a new soul should be born after every kiss. Has anybody given a serious thought to this aspect of creation in Satyug!

As students of science or biology we know that even in case of physical methods of procreation children cannot be born everytime someone indulges in such physical activities, then it is humorous to say that why conception does not take place every time a deity couple kisses each other. There must certainly be a difference between kissing for pleasure and kissing for procreation. But in order to achieve that stage one must also have that highest level of soul consciousness. You yourself say that the nectar of knowledge would emerge when the final revelation takes place through Ram Bap, but in case of methods of procreation you do not want to wait till then. You want everything to become clear now itself. How can that be possible?

Again the child which is born in Satyug will come out from the womb of the mother through' the normal anatomical pathway as it happens in the copper and iron age (except that there will be no labour pain at the time of delivery), then should not the route of conception be also the same? Or is there a different pathway for conception and a different pathway for delivery in Satyug ?

I agree that Baba has said in the Murlis that delivery of babies would take place through the womb only in case of deities. But as regards the physical aspects of the method of conception, I think you may have to wait for some more time.

With regards,
OGS,
Arjun

I agree that Baba has said in the Murlis that delivery of babies would take place through the womb only in case of deities. But as regards the physical aspects of the method of conception, I think you may have to wait for some more time.

Dear arjun Bhai.

I have never said that what i am telling is the truth; i have just expressed my views as a doctor and a person with some logic would do the same; i just want to exchange my views with a sound scientific and logical base; we all know that in the end the truth will be known to all; and i would like to wait till then and see whose manthan is nearest to the truth which Rambap reveals.

That is all i am aimimg at, nothing else.

shivsena.

I know there is always a difference between the idea and the practical thing. For example, now we can think about heaven and how will it be, we may get intoxicated but then it will be natural. Similarly, when one thinks oneself as a student of God it appears ... mind striking ... but later one realises it is very natural. It is the way it should be.

I appreciate that this is a difficult area for many to discuss but one in which someone has to grasp the nettle and explore it to the full satisfaction of others. A few observations;

Question: If we say that procreation takes place through the power of Yoga in the Golden Age, then there is no Yoga, i.e. connection between a soul and the Supreme Soul there. So how does the procreation takes place through the power of Yoga?
Answer: Does being in soul conscious stage not mean Yoga? In the Golden Age, children are born through the oral love only. For. E.g. Peacock and Peahen.

The idea that peacocks reproduced through their tears is a myth. They do it just like any other bird/mammal. I cannot find a source for the myth or symbolism of "peacock's tears". perhaps someone else can provide it? So this is not a completely sound answer by Kaliyugi standards.

Question: Secondly, if procreation is not supposed to take place for 2500 years through the sinful organs, then has the nature provided these organs to be used only after 2500 years?
Answer: The organ which causes the sexual assault will be as good as non-existent.

Cross-referencing shivsena's comments, I believe, on embryology, there could be some beleivable truth in this that as with a foetus, the body starts out as indistinguishable between male and female. Sakar Murlis stated that the only difference between the man and female deities were that the females had slightly longer hair. No mention of secondary sexual characteristics such as breasts and "adam's apple", nor womb. We see from BKWSU media they practise a belief in Krishna and deities children just magically appearing, full dressed, from space on the grass or on a pepal leaf. This surely must be irresponsible nonsense that should be condemned for what it is but is an indication of how their minds and leaders are developed.

Question: In the beginning of the Copper Age, who teaches us that the sinful organs are to be used for procreation?
Answer: Ibrahim; the base-like soul of Ibrahim and the seed-like soul of Ibrahim (teaches the use of impure sex-organs for the purpose of procreation)

Is the the PBK way of saying the "Chariot" souls that is "possessed" by the "religious founder soul", e.g. like Christ soul posessing the Jesus souls? [This would be a good topic to discuss elsewhere.

Question: If the sex-organs are considered to be the sinful organs and the eyes and lips are considered to be the superior organs, then why is Shivling worshipped?
Answer: Is Shivling a reminder of conception?

A good question. I would say no. It could be perceived as the two poles of "male" and "female", as in Yin-Yang symbol of the great Tai Chi. I was also told that the infinite curve of the Shivalingum was actually an attempt to describe a point. A point, or an infinitessimal point is a very difficult abstract concept to describe visually but in a curve, or at the tip of a semi-circle there is a point. I am not saying this is an authorative point of view and cannot remember its source but have seen it in more than one place. It is said that traditionally the lingam was not a form per se but formlessness itself. Just as God is formless.

Many scholars and yogis think the lingam as a phallic symbol, signifying the worship of fertility in Hinduism, is an unfounded theory. Some blame the British for encouraging the phallic interpretation. The Tantras and Puranas deem the Shiva lingam as representing the regenerative aspect of the material universe, the Agamas and Shastras do not elaborate on this interpretation, and the Vedas appear not to mention the Lingam, so one cannot assume an absolute meaning of it. Personally, I think the artists and craftsmen had a part in developing its sexual form for the sake of marketing and to the desire of individuals for erotica, as the earliest ones was just simple stones or clay marking a particular place. It is said that the pedestal was merely designed so as to drain off the water offered during ablution ceremonies and not as a female counter part.

Question: In order to procreate there should be a connection between the sperm and the ovum. As a doctor, I am unable to understand how the meeting of lips facilitates the travel of sperms from the mouth to the womb to meet the ovum?
Answer: When we achieve constant soul conscious stage then the nature of our energy becomes that of rising upwards.

That is really not an answer. It may be Virendra Dev Dixit or Shiva Baba's reply - and reminded back to soul-conscious instead of biology consciousness - but, especially in the light of the peacock myth, it is not an answer. It would be better that Shiva Baba just says, "I don't know, I was not there" and BB/Virendra Dev Dixit says, " I don't know". Students should be aware that there is a difference between a reply and an answer.

The alternatively concept that undercuts all this speculative thought is that in a "Golden Age" bodies might not be flesh and bone but an "ether". Again, are the BKs not a bit stuck with the Krishna worshipping and body conscious vision of Heaven looking like a rudimentary Bhakti depiction?

Is the the PBK way of saying the "Chariot" souls that is "possessed" by the "religious founder soul", e.g. like Christ soul posessing the Jesus souls? [This would be a good topic to discuss elsewhere.

Omshanti. I think I have explained this in some other threads in xbkchat forum as well as this one. But if a new thread is started, I would not mind repeating the explanation that is given in the Advanced Knowledge.

As regards your other views regarding the methods of reproduction, I respect your views. From the point of view of an outsider or ex-BK, the explanation given by ShivBaba in the Sakar Murlis (through Lekhraj Kirpalani) /clarification Murlis (through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit) may appear to be unsatisfactory/incomplete, but the complete answers on this topic may take much more time and research.

Your view about deities not having a physical body in heaven is in consonance with the view of the Vishnu Party, but it does not seem rational/scientific because that will reduce the physical history of the world further down to 2500 years. How can physical bodies spring up suddenly from subtle bodies immediately after the Silver Age? This is something like the classical theory of creation of the world in a few days that most religions believe.

With regards,
OGS,
Arjun

The idea that peacocks reproduced through their tears is a myth. They do it just like any other bird/mammal. I cannot find a source for the myth or symbolism of "peacock's tears". Perhaps someone else can provide it? So this is not a completely sound answer by Kaliyugi standards.

I too have looked into this and as yet come up with nothing ... I was quite interested when I first heard about this, but ... Is this point about peacocks mating actually in Sakar Murli?

Students should be aware that there is a difference between a reply and an answer.

Very well put.

It would be better that Shiva Baba just says, "I don't know, I was not there" and Brahma Baba/Veerendra Dev Dixit says, " I don't know"

Yeah, that would be interesting. Has it ever happened?

ShivBaba in the Sakar Murlis (through Dada Lekhraj) /clarification Murlis (through Baba Veerendra Dev Dixit) may appear to be unsatisfactory/incomplete, but the complete answers on this topic may take much more time and research.

Arjun Bhai, could you explain or elaborate more, when you say "complete answers will take much more time and research"?

Who will be doing the research?

I too have looked into this and as yet come up with nothing ... I was quite interested when I first heard about this, but ... Is this point about peacocks mating actually in Sakar Murli?

Yes, this had indeed been mentioned in the Sakar Murlis published by the BKs. I will try to quote one such Murli point as soon as I find it.

Quote:
It would be better that Shiva Baba just says, "I don't know, I was not there" and Brahma Baba/Veerendra Dev Dixit says, " I don't know"

Yeah, that would be interesting. Has it ever happened?

In many of the discussion cds ShivBaba (through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit) has declined to accept many of the churnings/ answer some questions of children saying that either concrete proofs were not available or that proofs were not available in the Murlis/Avyakt Vanis. This was mainly related to the history of the Yagya or the roles of particular souls in the 5000 year broad drama. Some such questions have been quoted in the Q&A thread of this section also.

Arjun Bhai, could you explain or elaborate more, when you say "complete answers will take much more time and research"?

Who will be doing the research?

I meant to say that there may be some issues in the Godly knowledge for which people may demand proofs. Simple quotation of Murli points/scriptures may not satisfy them. They may need some concrete proofs. For that research is needed to be done by children because Baba would not obtain worldly knowledge in every field to give answers that would satisfy specialists from the respective fields.

The research need not necessarily be done by children. Souls from the outside world may also be doing research on the subjects that are being discussed here, but they might not be aware that those subjects of research may be of great importance to us. But the research that children do/ others' research that is quoted/referred will have to be approved by Baba.
With regards,
OGS,
Arjun