Birth of Krishna / Reproduction in Heaven

Dear BK and PBK Brothers,

I am thankful to the administrators for having made this important and controversial subject as a seperate topic "Reproduction in Satyug". I had already made this post on xbkchat site a year ago but since the site was closed for PBKs soon after, we could not have a good discussion about it ; so those who have already read it may kindly ignore it if they wish so.

My churning and views on "Reproduction in Satyug.".

It is a universally accepted fact that two individuals are required for creation and without the union of the male and female cells, creation is just not possible; so keeping this fact in mind, i strongly feel that without the union of the male and female, procreation is just not possible in Satyug; but the important thing to keep in mind, is how this union takes place and what is the intention behind this union, as it has been said in Bhakti that God sees the intention and not the action.

The Deities of Satyug are soul-conscious and hence naked (not aware that they are bodies); so whenever mother nature wants progeny from the Deity couple, it unites the two bodies in soul-conscious state and conception takes place to produce twins (one son and one daughter). Creation is carried out by mother nature who is the care-taker and provider for the soul-conscious Deities and not willfully by the Deity-couple; now comes the question of union??? how does it occur??? For union to take place, erotism is a prelude without which union cannot take place and the male cell cannot be deposited in the birth canal to meet the female cell; Erotism cannot occur without any form of Lust; So the most important question is whether lust exists in Satyug or not??? Just as the seed of divinity exists in the copper and iron age even though externally the world has turned vicious, i strongly feel that the seed of lust does exist in golden and silver ages even though the world is divine; but lust exists at the minutest subconscious level in the merged state in the soul because for the simple reason, that if there is no seed of lust whatsoever in the souls in the subconscious mind, then how does lust emerge in the souls at the beginning of Copper Age?? It is said that the seed never dies and if seed is non-existent in the sankars of the soul in Satyug then where does the Lust come from when Copper Age starts???

If the readers have seen the chinese symbol of the yin-yang (which i feel represents the world cycle depicted as two halves : white and black ), it would be worth noticing that there are 2 dots in the symbol too : black dot in the white portion and white dot in the black portion. Now what does this signify??? The white portion represents the first half of the world cycle (divinity and +ve sanskars) and the black portion represents the second half of the world cycle (vices and -ve sanskars). The black dot within the white portion signifies that the seed of vices is in the merged state in the first half and the white dot in the black portion means that the seed of divinity exists in the merged state even though the souls start becoming vicious from the beginning of Copper Age. So co-relating from Godly knowledge and worldly knowledge, we now know that sanskars whether divine or vicious are all eternally imprinted in the soul and they just merge and emerge as per the time of Drama.

From medical and scientific knowledge we know that,
Without lust - erotism is not possible,
Without erotism - union is not possible,
Without union - conception is not possible,
and without conception - birth of a new individual is just impossible.

But all this (lust; erotism; union) happens in Satyug at the minutest sub-conscious level and the Deities remain soul-conscious externally and this phenomenon lasts for 2500 years birth after birth; slowly and steadily as the time passes, from beginning of Golden Age to the end of Silver Age, the subtle lust keeps on growing at the subconscious level and soul-consciousness starts declining from the 1st birth to the 20th birth and in the beginning of Copper Age suddenly while performing the union subconsciously, they just become aware of the act (they become body-conscious) and they realise that they are naked and start covering their bodies ; at this point of time it can be said that sex-lust entered the world and the first sin was committed by man and woman; the kingdom of maya-ravan was established and the vices which were in the subconscious mind became apparent externally and suffering and death entered the world. The organs which were subconsciously used only for procreation were now a source of pleasure and man-woman started using them for recreation (pleasure) and procreation became a by-product ; slowly these vices keep on increasing to such an extent till the end of iron age, that God Shiva has to come down to give Godly knowledge to revive the divinity which had existed in the souls in Satyug. So what we BKs and PBKs are doing is nothing but re-emerging the divine sanskars and merging our vicious sanskars (but not completely destroying them) as the seed of both are eternally present in every soul.

So to summarise : procreation in Satyug is through' union of sex-organs but without conscious-lust (union occurs in soul-conscious state); whereas in copper and iron ages too procreation is through' union of sex organs (but in body conscious state); there is willful indulgence and hence lust and pleasure comes into the picture; so the difference is only in the level of consciousness.

Again this corroborates well with what Baba says in Murlis : ''satyug-treta mein tumare karm akarm ban jaate hai aur dwapur-kaliyug mein tumare karm vikarma ban jaate hain''. (all actions become neutral in Satyug and all actions become vicious in iron age); the actions remain the same but because of the soul-conscious state in Satyug they become neutral and so karmic account do not accumulate ie no bondage; while because of body-consciousness in iron age all karma becomes vicious and so the karmic accounts are opened and carried forward in the births to come.

Points to ponder :

Just as in science, the -ve pole attracts the +ve pole and electricity is produced ; similarly 'beauty' and ''power to attract'' is inborn in a female body and ''Lust and erotism'' is inborn in a male body and these 2 opposite forces of Nature attract each other at the sub-conscious and conscious level thruout the 5000 years cycle and are responsible for propagation of the human race.

In Satyug these 2 forces act at the minutest sub-conscious level (Murli point : Krishna ki dhristi Radha mein aur radhe ki dhristi Krishna mein; meaning that both radhe and Krishna are attracted to each other); at the physical level it is pure love but at the subtle level there is minute body consciousness as it has been said in Murlis that from 1st day onwards in Satyug the soul starts becoming body-conscious; body consciousness starts in Satyug from 0.00001% to almost 100% till the end of iron age but never disappears from the 5000 year drama, just as divinity never disappears from this 5000 years drama; even at the end of Kaliyug it remains as a spark in the soul which is re-kindled by the Godly knowledge of Supreme Soul Shiva.

Proof that erotism without lust is possible:

Have you ever observed that a male infant and child has erotism without lust when suckling the mother's breast even though the child has not known lust externally. Also every male once he attains puberty often experiences early morning erection in sleep even though there are no conscious sexual thoughts in the mind; all this just proves that the seed of lust is inborn in a male body and it only moves from the sub-conscious level to the conscious level in the 5000 years drama.

It has been said in Bhagwat Gita : He who sees "action in inaction and inaction in action" only sees; this co-relates well with what Baba says in Murlis "Dekhte hue nahin dekhna aur karte hue nahin karna". In Satyug even though there is action (union of sex organs) the soul does not experience pleasure and so action becomes inaction (neutral karma); and in iron age even though a person does not indulge in physical act of union but has sexual thoughts roaming in his mind, then he is still in action even though externally he is not in action. So those who regard sexual union as taboo (sin), but do not see the motive behind it, really do not see as they are not seeing the act by the third eye of knowledge. So sexual-union is sacred when performed in soul-conscious state, for the sole purpose of creation, while sexual union is sin when performed for pleasure.

Now last but not the least, the concept of creation through' "shreshta-indriya" and bhrashta-indriya"; these terms are applied to the same sex-organs and not to different organs(eyes and mouth); the sex -organs become 'shreshta' when used sub-consciously solely for procreation and when they are used for pleasure they are known as 'bhrashta' indriya; the organs by themselves are neither 'shreshta' nor 'bhrashta' but the purpose behind the act decides whether the organs are good or bad which co-relates well with the saying "nothing in the world is good or bad, but it is our thoughts which make it so."

Proof : the shivling which represents the pure union between the male and the female is worshipped in India and the erect phallus (ling) without lust is also revered all through'out the world. Finally Baba has always mentioned that 'sex-lust' is a vice and the children have to overcome it. Has Baba ever mentioned that 'sex' is a vice?? if it was so, then the two sexes would not have been created in the first place; God and Mother Nature would have created only unisexual beings!!!!!!!

Mis-interpretation of Baba's words : ''Procreation in Satyug occurs through' yogbal".

Since these are the words of the Supreme Soul Shiva in the Murlis, these words cannot be wrong but they can be wrongly interpreted by the BKs and PBKs. Baba says : "behad ka bap behad ke bacchon se behad ki baat karte hain aur bacche hadh mein chale jaate hain" (the unlimited Father talks about unlimited things to his unlimited children but the children take it in the limited sense); all BKs and most PBKs take the literal meaning of Baba's words and hence most of Baba's mahavakyas are mis-interpreted.

When Baba says that ''Procreation in Satyug occurs through' yogbal", we have to understand which Satyug He is talking about ?? hadh ka Satyug or behad ka Satyug?? and co-relate this with other Murli points. Baba often mentions about 2 dramas in Murlis : "woh hai hadh ka drama aur yeh hai behad ka drama" (that is limited drama of 5000 years and this is unlimited drama ie. Sangamyugi drama); the 5000 years drama is the broad drama and this shooting period of Sangamyug is the subtle unlimited drama.

Since Baba has come in Sangamyug, He mostly talks about the Sangamyugi Satyug which is going to start in the near future when the pure souls of vijaymala (now hidden in the BKs) will recognise ShivBaba as their pati-husband and come running from the palaces of BKs to establish Vaikunth in Delhi; these pure vijaymala souls are the real sajnis of ShivBaba and only they have the power to establish Vaikunth (Sangamyugi swarg) where they will dance with their pati-parmeshwar and experience ati-indriya sukh and through' 'yogbal' they will receive the seed of the first generation of Golden Age souls like Radha and Krishna (Child Krishna will never be born by bodily contact); so the word 'yogbal' applies only to Sangamyugi swarg when both ShivBaba and his sajni souls are present and not to satyugi swarg where ShivBaba is absent.

Only the first generation of Satyug (41/2 lac) souls will be born to the 41/2 lac souls of the Advance Party who will change their bodies by yogbal (intellectual union with ShivBaba) and since God (ShivBaba) changes the bodies of these 4 1/2 lac souls of Advance Party and sows the seeds of the first generation of Satyug in the womb of vijaymala souls, He is known as Creator-Father. Many will argue that how does God plant the seed in the womb of vijaymala souls???? the answer is very simple : when God can change the impure patit body to a pure divine body by the power of Yoga, then why cannot He plant the seed of the first generation of Golden Age in the womb of the vijaymala souls; this power is exclusively vested in ShivBaba as per the drama and this is known as '' supreme power of Yoga" (yogbal); The union between the pure souls in Satyug from 2037 onwards cannot be called 'yogbal' ; it is connection between two souls and can be called 'soul power', and in iron age the connection between two bodies is called the ''power of the flesh".


The above views are the culmination of intense churning and extensive research of Murli points done over the last 10 years by an inquisitive mind which was not satisfied by anything but a scientific and rational explanation of the way how things exist in this universe and to understand the complexities of man-woman relationship in totality. Baba says that ''budhiman aadmi bina proof aur praman ke koi bhi baat nahin mante''. [Meaning that intellectual souls will not accept anything at face value but need proof and logical explanation to understand and accept].

Sakar ShivBaba was recognised by PBKs only when their third eye was opened by Advanced Knowledge; so also Baba's mahavakyas- words are not to be accepted at face value but are to be churned very deeply to understand their deep meaning. Baba's words are priceless jewels of knowledge worth crores (is it in terms of money!!) and most of the souls will not be able to understand what is their real meaning; only a few handful will understand what they really mean; that is why it has been said in Murlis "Mein jo hun, jaisa hun, jis roop se part bajaa raha hun, mujhe koi birla hi pechan sakta hai", (meaning that how I play the part of Bap-teacher-satguru only one soul in a crore can really understand) ; just as an artist can be known only by understanding his work of art; so also ShivBaba can be understood only if we understand His mahavakyas in Murlis.

Just recognising ShivBaba in person is not enough to enter the rosary beads of 108 and become a king; one has to understand fully The Knowledge given by ShivBaba and knowledge has been given in the form of Murli mahavakyas and in order to understand The Knowledge one has to churn on various Murli points intensely and co-relate them with other Murli points and comparing the Godly knowledge with Bhakti-marg and then only one gets nearer to the truth; as it has been said that "Gyan is source of income" and Gyan means understanding of the Murli points; just repeating the Murli points verbatim (word to word) without understanding is just like eating without digesting and assimilating; the BKs read and repeat the Murli points like a parrot in the class without understanding the deep meaning therein - and if we PBKs also quote the Murlis without understanding then what is the difference; is it not our duty to churn and share views on a particular point or a particular topic (giving proofs from Murlis and logical reasoning) and then only in the end when the time comes, Baba will verify and give marks accordingly to make the rudramala souls numberwise; since it has been mentioned in the Murlis that every soul is ''numberwar purusharth anusar''; so also the gems of knowledge will be understood numberwise by the BKs and PBKs.

ok----om shanti
Readers views, comments and criticism are eagerly awaited.
shivsena.

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Om Shanti Dear Brothers and Sisters.

I would like to express my points about this topic.

As I know, Deities couples will have two babies in Golden Age. The first will be born, approximately, at the age of 25 and the second at about 75 years old. Also, we know that they will be born by the power of Yoga. As I have heard, it is not a big deal for some special souls to materialize something. I mean, some gurus, sadhus, etc. can do it even now. So I suppose it is not a big deal for Deities to materialize one elementary cell in a womb. I suppose that this happens automatically after a strong will of having a baby appears in their minds.

Two thin things in that theory:

1) I only have heard about materializing (not see it by my own eyes)
2) It is just my understanding of that topic.

With regards. BK Dimok.

I strongly feel that the seed of lust does exist in golden and silver ages even though the world is divine; but lust exists at the minutest subconscious level in the merged state in the soul because for the simple reason, that if there is no seed of lust whatsoever in the souls in the subconscious mind, then how does lust emerge in the souls at the beginning of Copper Age?? It is said that the seed never dies and if seed is non-existent in the sankars of the soul in Satyug then where does the Lust come from when Copper Age starts???

... it has been said in Murlis that from 1st day onwards in Satyug the soul starts becoming body-conscious; body consciousness starts in Satyug from 0.00001% to almost 100% till the end of iron age but never disappears from the 5000 year drama, just as divinity never disappears from this 5000 years drama; even at the end of Kaliyug it remains as a spark in the soul which is re-kindled by the Godly knowledge of Supreme Soul Shiva.

I agree. This point was similarly raised in an old thread that's been collecting dust;here, though it was not concluded whether or not vice occured in the Golden Age.

As this is a deep topic, I am hoping ShivBaba (Virendra Dev Dixit) could firstly clarify does vice/impurity exist in the Golden Age. Then we can ask the next question.

If the union of sex organs is considered as taboo by the BKs and most of the PBKs, then why is the 'shivling' ( which represents the union of the male and female organs) worshipped and revered in India and the 'phallus' is worshipped all over the world.

I also was never given a direct explanation about the meaning of the 'phallus'. Does anyone know why the organs male/female are worshipped?

As this is a deep topic, I am hoping ShivBaba (Veerendra Dev Dixit) could firstly clarify does vice/impurity exist in the Golden Age. Then we can ask the next question.

I also was never given a direct explanation about the meaning of the 'phallus'. Does anyone know why the organs male/female are worshipped?

Dear Sister Bansy and Surya Bhai,
Ever since this topic was started by Shivsena Bhai, I was trying to recollect if this topic was discussed in the xbkchat forum and Shivsena Bhai has himself admitted that it indeed was discussed. But today as I was searching my documents on the hard disc, I found that there are two files related to this topic. One of the files contains a date (7.6.05) when Shivsena Bhai started the discussion on this topic on xbkchat. If someone has time, they can search the xbkchat archive and provide some link to that topic.

I found that the issues raised in that thread were conveyed to Baba and he has replied to many of the questions including some issues raised by our old fried BKPari in that thread. Since, the file is very big, and it will take some time for me to arrange the main issues and the answers given by Baba in the form of Q&A. Hence, it is requested to kindly wait for a while.

Meanwhile, I request Shivsena Bhai to kindly quote Baba's answers to the issues that he has already raised in the xbkchat so that Baba's time is not wasted by asking him the same questions again and again. I remember Baba telling one of the Brothers through a mail that it is not good to ask the same questions to Baba repeatedly even after receiving the answers. This is only a request and I hope Shivsena Bhai would not mind it.

With regards,
OGS,
Arjun

Meanwhile, I request Shivsena Bhai to kindly quote Baba's answers to the issues that he has already raised in the xbkchat so that Baba's time is not wasted by asking him the same questions again and again. I remember Baba telling one of the Brothers through a mail that it is not good to ask the same questions to Baba repeatedly even after receiving the answers. This is only a request and I hope Shivsena Bhai would not mind it.

Dear arjun Bhai.

Just to remind you that i have not asked Baba a single question since 2001 through email or through letters; i had asked him a series of 10 questions in 2001 and the reply i received was enough to convince me that the answers are not given by Supreme Soul Shiva through the body of Virendra Dev Dixit; but they have been given by Krishna's soul through Virendra Dev Dixit; (if anybody wants the queries can kindly request the same through email and i will send it through' email); ever since i have started to do research myself and will wait till Ram ShivBaba Himself unfolds the truth in the end when HE becomes 100% incorporeal stage with Shivbap and adorns the role of BAP-TEACHER-SATGURU.

I am putting my queries and views on the site to exchange them with my BK and PBK Brothers to know their view point; that is all; i do not need any confirmation from Baba about the same, for it has been said in Murlis "aap Baba se kuch bhi pooch sakte ho, par Baba wohi hi bataega jo uss samay batana hoga; samay se pahela Baba bhi kuch nahin bataega, kyon ki Baba bhi drama ke bandhan mein bandha hua hai." (meaning that "one can ask Baba anything but Baba will answer only according to the scene in drama; Baba cannot disclose any secret before time; in this respect Baba is also limited by the drama")

The above mahavakya clearly indicates that it is premature and not right to ask Baba each and every query while the children are discussing The Knowledge amongst themselves; it is like an exam is going on and in the middle of the exam some students ask the supervisor (teacher) as to what is the right answer and expect Him to give a correct answer; this just reflects the intellect of the one who is asking the question; this Godly knowledge is also like a big behad ka classroom and ShivBaba is taking a subtle exam as to which student is churning The Knowledge on his own (apni ghot toh nasha chade) and which student requires spoon-feeding; and this is what will decide in the end as to who will come in the rosary of 108 and who will come in 16000 and who will come in praja.

This is what my sincere feeling according to the churning of the Murli points.
shivsena

Just to remind you that I have not asked Baba a single question since 2001 through email or through letters; I had asked him a series of 10 questions in 2001 and the reply I received was enough to convince me that the answers are not given by Supreme Soul Shiva through the body of Veerendra Dev Dixit ...

Dear Brother, Omshanti. I would respect your beliefs and would not request you to quote Baba's replies on the issues that you have raised earlier. I will do it myself as far as possible.

By the way, I would like to know if you have ever met Baba personally/in PBK gathering and discussed the issues that you have been raising in the last few years on xbkchat and other forums including this one. If so, it would be interesting to know the replies that you might have received from Baba (Krishna's soul as per your beliefs).

Finally, I would like to make another request from the point of view of a layman. Just as we PBKs quote Baba Virendra Dev Dixit within brackets when referring to 'Baba' in our writings, it would be better if you write 'Krishna's soul' or 'Dada Lekhraj's soul through the body of Baba Virendra Dev Dixit' within brackets after 'Baba' so that other souls do not get confused/misled. Since there is a vast difference between the Supreme Father Shiv and the child Krishna giving knowledge, it would not be proper to mix up both of them although both you and we PBKs believe that Shiv as well as Krishna's soul are playing their parts through the body of the soul of Ram (Baba Virendra Dev Dixit).

With regards,
OGS,
Arjun

Dear Brother, Omshanti. I would respect your beliefs and would not request you to quote Baba's replies on the issues that you have raised earlier. I will do it myself as far as possible.

Dear arjun Bhai.
I have never quoted and will never quote what Baba says in cassettes or cds on any public forum; but i have personally discussed the answers with many PBKs in Mumbai and whenever i have met PBKs outside; and i have no reservations whatsoever if one wants to know the answers given to me by Baba through' email personally; i am willing to share with them any time. Yes, i leave you the job of forwarding all queries to Baba and quoting them back.

By the way, I would like to know if you have ever met Baba personally/in PBK gathering and discussed the issues that you have been raising in the last few years on xbkchat and other forums including this one. If so, it would be interesting to know the replies that you might have received from Baba (Krishna's soul as per your beliefs).

I met Baba personally on the 14th of August 2006 at khar gita-patshala and our conversation lasted for 2 hours (along with 5 other PBKs) and the whole thing was recorded on video and i had personally asked Baba about the ambiguity and the incompleteness of Advanced Knowledge; i also expressed my views about many other points which i have been raising on the xbkchat site and this site and on yahoo group; and let the VCD* be numbered and be available for PBKs to see and decide if anyone will be any wiser after seeing the cassette. I have nothing to hide.

Finally, I would like to make another request from the point of view of a layman. Just as we PBKs quote Baba Veerendra Dev Dixit within brackets when referring to 'Baba' in our writings, it would be better if you write 'Krishna's soul' or 'Dada Lekhraj's soul through the body of Baba Veerendra Dev Dixit' within brackets after 'Baba' so that other souls do not get confused/misled. Since there is a vast difference between the Supreme Father Shiv and the child Krishna giving knowledge, it would not be proper to mix up both of them although both you and we PBKs believe that Shiv as well as Krishna's soul are playing their parts through the body of the soul of Ram (Baba Veerendra Dev Dixit).

I can understand your dilemma about the quotes; but if you observe very closely i have never quoted anything which Baba has explained in cassettes or cds; i have always quoted and will always quote the Sakar Murlis as i feel strongly that the whole truth lies in the Murlis of Supreme Soul Shiva; for i genuinely believe that whatever is said in the cds are not explanations of Supreme Soul Shiva ; they are just churnings of Krishna as per the shooting period of the subtle Sangamyugi drama; the final and absolute truth (true Gita knowledge) will only come when Ram's soul achieves the 100% nirakari stage and merges his personality with Shivbap and becomes living ShivBaba; now since i will not be quoting any cassettes or cds then whenever i address the word ShivBaba or Baba it will always mean that the quotes are from Sakar Murlis. Even though i know that at present it is Krishna's soul who is playing his part through' Virendra Dev Dixit ; but i also know that the same body of Virendra Dev Dixit will be the vehicle of Ram ShivBaba when He reaches the 100% incorporeal stage; so i cannot address Baba as you have mentioned, as it would not be in respect of the future role of Bap-teacher-satguru; the whole thing has to be understood only by the intellect; that is all i have to say.

shivsena.

I had personally asked Baba about the ambiguity and the incompleteness of Advanced Knowledge;

Is it possible for you to give a general idea of the answer you recieved from Baba on this particular point?

Dear Brother,

The role of Father- Teacher - Satguru is not of the soul of Ram. The soul of Ram need not achieve any stage for this role, because this role is of the soul of Shiva who is always in 100% soul concious stage.

We should always consider ShivBaba speaking.

Baba will deliver knowledge according to the drama. Baba will deliver. If we could receive this knowledge by our own thinking, why should it be said Baba will deliver. Our intellect is impure and thinks only old things. We don’t know the new points. New points, to create the new world, come only from ShivBaba. And new points do keep emerging. If everyone could deliver this knowledge Shiva would become omnipresent and the world would continue to become hell. Now it is time for heaven to come. So it should be one religion, one direction.

The final exam takes a second and takes place in the end. It is an exam of complete detachment. If you don’t study how will you know when He has started delivering The Knowledge or not. As you think he has not yet started. Or that he has reached 100% incorporeal stage. What will be the indication. What if he has already achived this stage. How will you differentiate? What makes you think he has not.

Baba (Virendra Dev Dixit) has been saying recently that even the study is over and now we should do our own research. I personally feel that this knowledge is nothing if we listen to it and narrate it. This knowledge is something if we have faith in it and create a world according to it. And how it is that you present your ideas as if it is like this. For instance about the soul of Krishna. Yes, many things I may not know and my faith may also shake, but finally I’ll be OK, and Baba will deliver new points and we’ll go back together, isn’t it?

Some years ago, Avyakt BapDada has mentioned we should make combined efforts. OK no matter we may have different ideas, but cannot we act unitedly. Ideas finally will also become one. For instance, you have prepared a site with Advanced Knowledge. Many people go there and read and receive the introduction (as I did myself) but can you admit this is goldy knowledge or your own churnings? This is Godly knowledge. No matter how one interferes and puts from himself, it still remains the Godly knowledge. Now are you ready to sacrifice this, are you ready to sacrifice your own ideas? And would you like that for everyone BK, PBK etc. if there is only one site according to Supreme direction?

Is it possible for you to give a general idea of the answer you recieved from Baba on this particular point?

Dear john Bhai.

I can understand your curiosity to know the details of my conversation with Baba ; but i cannot put that on paper; i may not be able to reproduce the exact meaning in words and so ambiguity may creep in ; when the VCD* are available then everybody will be able to see and decide as to who was giving the answers.

OK Om Shanti.
shivsena.

Dear Brother,
The role of Father- Teacher - Satguru is not of the soul of Ram. The soul of Ram need not achieve any stage for this role, because this role is of the soul of Shiva who is always in 100% soul concious stage.

Dear andrey Bhai.
If bindi Shivbap is bap teacher Satguru then what is the difference between the BKs and PBK; they believe that shivbindi was bap-teacher-satguru in the body of Brahma(Dada Lekhraj) and PBKs believe that shivbindi is bap-teacher-satguru in the body of Virendra Dev Dixit; also then why does Shivbap say all the time in Murlis that "Ram is ShivBaba"; ''Ram is parampita paramatma"; ''Ram is bap"; "Ram is bhagwan". etc.etc; why is Ram always associated with ShivBaba???

We should always consider ShivBaba speaking.

That is what the BKs say when we give them Advanced Knowledge; even if Brahma is speaking always consider that it is ShivBaba speaking; then what is the difference between BKs and PBKs.

If everyone could deliver this knowledge Shiva would become omnipresent and the world would continue to become hell. Now it is time for heaven to come. So it should be one religion, one direction.

That is what i am trying to understand that if ShivBaba was speaking The Knowledge through' Virendra Dev Dixit then why is the PBK family suffering the same fate as the bks- dividing into 9 different groups; going downhill and not uphill; dividing and not uniting inspite of God ShivBaba with us; seeing the state of the BK family brought me to Advanced Knowledge and i see the same fate of the PBK family; so where do i go from here; it is like the saying" from the frying pan into the fire"; i am not finding any change in me and likewise in other PBKs( though they are not brave enough to admit it openly; but they realise from inside); so the truth has to be somewhere; where?????? i feel that the truth is hidden in the Sakar Murlis and the only thing is we have to churn and go deep to understand what Shivbap is trying to say in the first place; since Murli dated 20-5-77 says "all secrets can be known from the Murlis"; so just churning the Murlis in the right sense will unveil everything; that is what i sincerely feel.
ok- more later.
shivsena.

Dear Brother,

The difference is that the role of Father - Teacher - Satguru is not played through Dada Lekraj, but through the second personality. Bindi Shivbap plays the role of Mother through Dada Lekraj. Yes, Ram is Father, but Shiva is Father to him, Teacher to him, and Satguru to him too. Its is only the greatness to Shiv the bindi.

Ram is ordinary human soul, that becomes the highest deity. So through this combined personality of Shiv-Shankar, others become deities too. But where do teachings come from? Yes, this is the mistake as to who is speaking. Even BKs say it has been Shiva who has spoken through Brahma Baba.

Brother, You can read the Murli 100 times and not understand it, so a Teacher is needed. That is why here there is a saying, "feed a dog so that it can bark to you". Where do you get this knowledge that the Krishna plays a role in Shankar. Now, where does it come to you that Krishna only teaches? I suppose thing will get better if there is unity of BK and PBK. But you answer the questions; who is the God of the Gita? And where do we get Shrimat from? Krishna DadaLekraj or the second Personality of Shankar? Because you say we can only find the secrets in the Murlis, so this is only Shrimat. That is why Baba says of some children who think, " Oh, what would be our condition if it was not you".

Revised Murli 13.1.04

"... They don't even know how the Father, the Ocean of Knowledge, who is also the Teacher teaches ..."

The Father is the Ocean of knowledge and is also the Teacher himself. Is Ram an Ocean of knowledge? Yes, souls become numberwise oceans of knowledge. But the true ocean of knowledge is only one and it is the soul of Shiva.

Dear Brother,
The difference is that the role of Father - Teacher - Satguru is not played through Dada Lekraj, but through the second personality. Bindi Shivbap plays the role of Mother through Dada Lekraj.

Yes; this is what the conventional teaching of Advanced Knowledge that bindishiv played the the role of mother through' Dada Lekhraj Brahma; but nowhere in the Murlis there is any indication to this concept; also i do not understand how can there be any motherly sanskars in a bindi soul who has no emotions and no attachment and no feelings and no body-consciousness for 5000 years and who rests in a remote Paramdham for 5000 years; suddenly He comes on this earth to become the mother first and then bap-teacher-satguru.
This concept just beats me.

Yes, Ram is Father, but Shiva is Father to him too, Teacher to him too And Satguru to him too. Its is only the greatness to Shiv the bindi.

Again this thing is beyond comprehension that bindi Shiv who has no feelings requires revelation and glorification.
shivsena.

Dear Brother,
Yes, the bindi itself has no meaning, That's why he uses the corporeal body. But it is not the soul of Krishna who has played this part of Mother. How Shiv plays his part how he uses the body, mind, intellect, sanskars etc. It is not known to me.

What is the strange thing in the different roles? Through different personalities, different roles are played. Brahma is different, Shankar is different. Looking at the body one cannot differentiate. One cannot differentiate even looking at the souls. The expressed personality is one. That's why it is said we should always consider it is ShivBaba. Those who thought it is Brahma failed.

Ah, you mean revelation, who needs revelation. Who is the Bestower, the benefactor? He needs revelation, because on knowing Him we get benefit. But He can be revealed only in a body. And through him we also come to know the main actors in the drama Ram - Krishna. More or less you say He is incognito now and only Krishna plays a part. No. 3 souls play part in Shankar. Shiv is one of them. But still personality is one. Bap and Dada are combined and cannot be separated.