Is India (Bharat) the most degraded?

It is said that Bharat becomes most elevated and most Degraded.

In the picture of The Ladder, it is seen that Krishna is still standing in his last birth. He has not fallen so far and does not rise that much. It is said that the horoscope of Krishna and Christ match. It is said that Christians do not rise and does not fall so much. Bharat is shown lying down, fallen, very much lying on bed of thorns. He is different. It is the soul of Ram. The soul of Krishna is not Bharat who becomes the most elevated and most degraded.

There can be no doubt that Bharat is on the up at the present, people are slowly being lifted from poverty as the economy grows.

There are many countries in the world in a far worse condition than Bharat, how can this be possible?

Mr. green,

You have asked an interesting question. One possible answer could be that the souls suffering in those countries could be the souls which may have been Indians in the past births. Another possible answer could be that these suffering souls could be among those souls that take very few births in the drama at the fag end. They experience the pleasures and pains within those few births only.

However, I would request Baba also for an answer to this question.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

Thank you for the intelligent response Arjun.

Dear Brother shivsena,

there is no need for someone to say directly. In the Murli it is never said that, "Bharat is a soul". Before we have the Advanced Knowledge we understood that Bharat was meant for the land, is it not? Many things are not said in the Murli that are said in the Advanced Knowledge. It should not be a problem for us. It is new knowledge. Like in the Murli, it is directly said that cycle is 5000 years. Nowhere said this before but we accept it. Why not accept the Advanced Knowledge?

Ram is Bhagwan or Ishwar, it is not for the soul of Ram becaue if it were for him then he used to be there in the past also in Dwapur, Kaliyuga. Was he Bhagwan or Ishwar then? We know God comes only at the Confluence Age.

Dear Brother Mr. Green,

Is it the economical growth only and poverty that are to be counted in rise and fall? Prosperity is subjective, as is degradation, it cannot be measured. One is happy with a peny, one is unhappy with a million. It is also said that money also corrupts. When a corrupt one becomes rich, he becomes even more corrupt. Then it makes a diffference from where you fall. No matter some may be on one and the same level, if one has fallen from the 5th floor to the same level and one from the first, one will be hurt and one will be hurt less.

It is said that Bharat only becomes Shivalaya and a brothel. In other countries, there is no worship of many. There are not many gurus. It depends on what you look at. In some way, in the sense of values even can it be said that it has degraded. Values are there even more then anywhere else, even today. At other places these value have not been there ever. They have different values.

One can see a boy lying in the dirt but still his face is calm and peaceful and here we may lie in luxurous beds, still our face is crooked with violence. Sorrow and happiness is a human measure one cannot put it on a scale. However, there is a sense that people there experience deep sorrow. And what is to happen in future?

Don't look at the speculative documentaries with the hungry children of Africa etc. They are just made to make you shed a tear and open your pocket for charity which will go into the pocket of the director and not to feed the children. Yes, India now starts becoming the next economical tiger like China did but what will be the result out of it?

I also feel in future, money will be prove very, very useless. One will be having loads of money and he will not be able to do anything with them and will be left with them. In desparate circumstances, in emergency, one sees how money cannot buy anything. Things that are important are not money and what we'll need in future will not be money but the practice of soul-conciousness that will prove to be useful to us, for times of turmoil are to come.

The value of money can diminish in a day, as we know from the times of war. Now we are facing a big war and natural calamities. How will money help?

Andrey

Either the Murlis are correct or incorrect, there is no inbetween.

In the Murlis it clearly says that Bharat becomes the highest and the lowest at the corresponding times of The Cycle. It does not quote specifics as to how to interpret the degredation. It merely states that it is highest and lowest.

Now clearly many countries are worse of socially, morally, financially, medically than Bharat at the current time when it is supposed to be the most degraded.

Clearly the statement of the Murli is incorrect.

Now clearly many countries are worse of socially, morally, financially, medically than Bharat at the current time when it is supposed to be the most degraded.

In this connection, ShivBaba has clarified in the Sakar Murlis narrated through Brahma Baba that the West would also pay back whatever it has taken from India during the colonial days.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

Respected Sir, mr green, if you don't mind, can I interfere? The Murli statements which describe Bharat as the most degraded country, are correct & you are also correct.

Consider two persons; 'A' who has 25,000 dollars & 'B' who has 10,000 dollars. Now suppose that A has lost 15,000 dollars & B has lost 5,000 dollars. So A will possess 10,000 dollars & B will possess 5,000 dollars. Now tell me who has suffered more loss?

On the absolute scale of measurement, it seems that B has to suffer more loss than A, as B possess only 5,000 dollars & A possess 10,000 dollars & so A will enjoy more property. So B is under the more worse conditions than that of A.

But on the relative scale of measurement, it appears that A has to suffer triple loss than that of B. So, comparative conditions of A becomes worse than that of B.

It's true that financial conditions of Bharat are better than that of most underdeveloped cnntries. So, on the absolute scale of measurement, most of underdeveploped contries are under the worse conditions than that of Bharat.

But in the Golden & Silver Age, Bharat was the richest, the most prosperous & the gloriest country. But today Bharat has lost everything. Though Bharat is under the better conditions than that of underdeveloping countries, the propotionality of loss suffered by Bharat is much greater than that of any country in the world, even greater than that of the poorest country. So, on the relative scale of measurement, the conditions of Bharat are the worst. Thus it is the most degraded country.

In this connection, ShivBaba has clarified in the Sakar Murlis narrated through Brahma Baba that the West would also pay back whatever it has taken from India during the colonial days.

Hi.

I just dropped by to drop off a copy of "Is this Justice?" and I hope you and Virendra Dev Dixit get yours soon.

You raise an interesting point Arjun that I would like to respond to. Who does Baba mean by "The West" and who is "India" ... as so often, Baba or Virendra Dev Dixit means individuals rather than nations when he uses such terms.

If he really means "The West" and "India",

how ... and where ... can a region or a country have and store a karmic account?

Are we talking just material wealth, money, here?

What is the mechanism of intercontinental karmic accounts and are they accurate accounts that take into consideration what was given minus what was taken?

Do such collective karmic accounts also apply between the rulers of a people and the people he rules, e.g. the Nazim of Hyderabad was probably the richest man in the world at the time of the start of the Yagya ... just like the slavery that the chiefs of Africa exploited their people by, that wealth was exploited from the land and workers of India. Do the Indian puppet Rajs not equally owe the Indian people and why are they not targetted? (Of course, the BKWSU are targetting their wealth now!)

"The West" did not take anything from "India". "The West" never even went to India. There is no such place as the "India" Lekhraj Kirpalani talks about and certainly not at the time of the British Empire.
"The West", if you mean the people of Europe ... or even England ... comprised of approximately 99.5% uneducated peasants, (just like the inhabitants of India) living in appalling conditions, with a wet chilling climate unimaginable to most Hindus, with no democratic or human rights who probably had not even walked to the nearest city never mind KNEW where India was. It never invaded India, it never went to India ... and, ditto, who is India anyway!?!

"The West" owes "India" ... nothing.

Now, the gentlemen pirates of the East India Trading Company and its followers, a few gentry, the royal family of England, and a few powerful Jews ... now that is another question. They did trade, then bastardise, then rip off what the Moguls or Rajputs and merchants had previous ripped off the people and peasants of Bharat. For example, we are told it was the allegedly Jewish Rotheschild managed to grab the gold off the domes of the Taj Mahal, but was that ripping off "India" ... or the Moguls Islamicists that conquered the Hindus early ... or the Aryans who conquered the Dravidians early ... .

What difference did any ruler make to the peasants of India ... until the English came along to improve things for them!?! Likewise, God falls short here because I cant see what bad karma the Swiss, or the Norwegians, or the Poles have with the Gujerat ... I cant even see what Karma America has with it and America consitutes a very large part of "The West"!

So why should the people of the West pay for the crimes of a tiny minority of capitalists and non-democractic rulers?
Should not the poor get back what was once theirs, what they owned as the commonwealth of the land of India?
Why does the BK/PBK version of karma, and the BKWSU God and SS, apparently reward those that chose to exploit the natural commonwealth of the world and ignore those that chose not to and are happy in a simple, sustainable existence?
What material value do we put on each life that was saved by the British either through stopping Sutee, the Thugees, the introduction of health care and sanitation etc etc etc versus the goods that were taken?
Why should "India" not pay for the intellectual property that The West brought it?

This is not an attack at you, because I respect the PBKs for their simple, true, Gandhian application of Gyan ... I think it is an attack on the poison and ignorance that was current within Lekhraj Kirpalani at the time that he spoke such racist, nationalistic tosh ... rubbish ... uneducated ... middle class aspirant ... IGNORANCE. Political, historical and spiritual ignorance.

Lekhraj Kirpalani was basically racist or at least an India nationalist and I cannot think or understand why a Supreme Soul would pander to simplistic racist agendas such as Indian nationalism ... unless, of couse, he is talking about something metaphoric and allegorical. I believe that perhaps he is. All the same, in my experience, the BKWSU has the stink of Indian nationalism about it (... and indeed exports nationalism elsewhere, e.g. we saw the US BK wishing to celibrating the "Greatness" of America) but, to be honest, India is not that great.

I have a feeling that some BKs and PBKs are making the same mistake as the Jews when they think, believe, or politick for a nation called Israel. The "Israel" that God promised the Jews was not a geographic land in the Middle East so, surely, the Bharat of Shiva Baba is not India either.

The PBKs are a little coy at discussing and naming Jews and Judaism ... I have no idea why they call it Islam ... but given the allegorical definition of the word, perhaps we are coming close to defining the nature and interest of the Jewish seeds within the BK world here. The Chosen people, power and wealth, material property ... the worshipping of Mammon it was called.

Back to the topic at hand though, I have attempted in one short brush stroke to raise a whole load of complex, contradictory issues that arise from that erroneious statement. I do not want or expect you to go to Baba to ask him because the answer will be short and obscure and mean nothing. What I hope to do is just raise an small awareness of the dangers of dumbing down reality and the lack of spiritual foundations to such statements.

Frankly, I think the same argument applies to the Blacks of Africa that were affected by slavery who are also within the US, and elsewhere, being whipped up and manipulated by spiritual, historical and political falsehoods.

We cannot take Lekhraj Kirpalani and the Yagya out of the time and place that they grew ... and just like other oppressed people, the Sindis had some massive chips on their shoulders about English rule, and the early BKs issues with their Hindu brethern such as the then most famous Sadhu Vaswani, one of a handful of India known to the West. Are we so sure that God would stoop to such petty politicking ... or even care about such matters at all? Is Shiva Baba a Hindu God?

And as one last thought, we discussed earlier Baba's Shrimat that a soldier firing a bullet to kill a man under orders would not suffer the karma of murdering that man if it was done following orders. (I disagreed). If this is so, why would a British soldier "following orders" in India suffering any karma at shooting Indians or removing gold? Does karma only apply to non-Hindu soldiers ... or somehow apply more strongly to bad karmas done against Hindus?

I hope that I have not over labored my points here but I find the basic knowledge, and the BKWSU stance, deeply unsatisfactory. Like Paul on another thread, my God is a little bit more of a universal God, may be the God of the 355 Days he is not hanging out in Rajasthan or the three quarter days he is not popping in and out of Virendra Dev Dixit.

Thanks.

(See also a recommendation elsewhere for a Movie set in Benares in 1938 called Water)

Dear br. Mr. Green,

i mean that we are at the end but still there is some more time left till the end so we may see what will happen in future and the Murli may be proved right. It is said that in India there will be war and natural calamities that will be causing a lot of seferring and the rest of the world will also be experienceing this but there also the atomic bombs will give quick death with no suffering. In such conditions everything emerges. It is said that before coming to an end things go to extremes. For example in the case with the storms in USA that there was an outburst of burglery, crimes etc. at that time.

This is not an attack at you, because I respect the PBKs for their simple, true, Gandhian application of Gyan ... I think it is an attack on the poison and ignorance that was current within Lekhraj Kirpalani at the time that he spoke such racist, nationalistic tosh ... rubbish ... uneducated ... middle class aspirant ... IGNORANCE. Political, historical and spiritual ignorance.

I knew that my statement (based on Murlis) is controversial and may trigger discussion on racism. But, I was only conveying what has been said in the Murlis. I think there is a mention about 'the West' returning what it has taken from India. This 'return' has been mentioned in the form of loans and other kinds of assistance given to the Indian Government. But this is only a literal meaning.

As you said there could be a metaphorical sense to it. In a metaphorical sense it could mean souls from the non-deity relgions (like Christianity, Islam, etc.) returning the service rendered by the soul representing Bharat.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

I knew that my statement (based on Murlis) is controversial and may trigger discussion on racism ... In a metaphorical sense it could mean souls from the non-deity relgions (like Christianity, Islam, etc.) returning the service rendered by the soul representing Bharat.

We are probably headed off topic here and should start a new thread on nationalism but ultimately it does relate back to who and what is "Bharat" or India.

Racism is probably too strong a word, although their are strong elements of racial superiority and superiority complexes. Racialism or Nationalism are probably a better word ... and despite the assurances that Shiva Baba gives that he takes care of all the utterances of Lekhraj Kirpalani, it is very clear that he and the early BKWSU were motivated by such body-conscious emotions. I think the Golden Aged is as alien to a Gujerati as it would be to an eskimo and vice versa. I do not think it is owned by India or "Indian" as it is portrayed. It seems to me to be all appealling to either the chip on Indians' shoudlers or their nationalism.

All the same, I would not want those issues to draw attention away from the more valid, concrete spiritual inquiries included in my post, e.g. how can a country or a region have karma as it is not a soul and does not have sanskars or reincarnate to pay its karma off?

Interestingly enough, other non-Gyani spiritual commentators DO talk about "national karma" but I have never heard the how and where defined by BapDada etc. Can such a thing as collective karma exist, e.g. how do we deal with the 'Jewish Question' of a people hounded and hated to the point of genocide generation after generation, one country's good/bad luck, or national tendencies?

For me, we are all mirrors to each other and it is clear that the child-like Bharat and his followers were still mired in their national body-consciousness and these have been become concreted through the repetition of the dated Murlis. Many of their statements and appeals to others were on a very low level of nationalistic consciousness, e.g. appeal to anti-British, anti-Moslem sentiments and, dare I say it, jealous of the successes of the like of Gandhi, Vaswani and the Congress at at time when they saw themselves as the hero actors.

It could be that the service rendered back to India by "The West" is spiritual, and evolutionary, not financial. But I always caution against the use of such generalisations and the use of collective groupings.

In "The West" there is much hatred being fermented by Black activists on the basis of the period of slavery, Moslem activists on the basis of the Crusades, allegedly Jewish lobbies exploiting the suffering of the Holocaust victims as a weapon of guilt. In "The East", similar attacks are being made on Japan by Chinese and Korean political activistwith their own agenda and in India ... and Gyan ... the British and Islamic issues still simmer.

But who are the "they" that the ire is attacking? What do the common people of any nation have to do with the actions of a few that were not even democratically elected? What do new souls have to do with the karma of old souls?

Generally, the single unifying theme throughout all these is that someone wants money out of someone else for nothing and the issues are nothing but a guises, a yukti, to achieve this. Or it is game of power, politicking. For those then use it, a method of appealling to individuals self-interest and tilting support in their direction.

Given Lekhraj Kirpalani through Gulzar's regular acts in Madhuban of playing 'commander in chief' to 'rallying the troups', it seems to me that,

a) he is not over it yet and
b) it is either necessary ... or works too well to give up.

For me, it all falls short of true spirituality and I am saddened that the BKWSU, and even PBKs, are stuck at a such a level of slogan-isms. It raises my doubts about the ultimate nature of this so called Supreme Soul, especially when one presses further to ask for clarifications form Seniors that either come back short and obscure or brushed aside.

New World

Your premise doesn't stand up, it is based on supposition, something I am not dealing with. I am dealing with truth.

You see your murli-based logic can be applied in other ways, i.e. one could easily state that because other countries are more degraded than Bharat at the present time that this proves they were more elevated than Bharat in the past!!!!!!!!

Andrey

Thank you for effectively admitting the Murli is incorrect by revealing your hopes that what has been said might be yet to come into being .

Why incorrect? If we see a complicated mathemathical formula that we cannot understand, it is not that it is incorrect. Maybe we can see it being correct at some point when we learn, if not today, tommorrow.

Murlis can be proved false on each step and discarded, but it is better to harvest some patience and try to churn, understand, ask, ect. If you are dealing with truth then say, what is truth, where is truth, where can be found etc.

Or are you a dealer with no goods to deal with?

If you are dealing with truth then say, what is truth, where is truth, where can be found etc. ... Or are you a dealer with no goods to deal with?

The problem with the BK point of view is that "Truth" of Knowledge (tm) has come to mean something entirely different from truth, just as facts have come to mean gossip in that world. Everything is turned upside down but we are told it is downside up.

But I agree that collating all the facts (history) of the Yagya and knowledgebase (Murlis and previous published and spoken works) is the starting point to working out what it is all about.