Pink Panther wrote:That "powerful" spiritual experiences do happen within BKism just like they do for people of other faiths, or no "religious faith" or as you say later, fans/fanatics of popular figures just shows that they are human! How do we know that a "powerful" experience had by one person is more truly "spiritual" than that had by another ...
By "spiritual" I only mean 'not physically induced' (
within which I would also include 'drug induced'), so mentally or psychically induced experiences. No, I would not class 'group hysteria' as a spiritual experience.
Please do try and remember the topic title and try and keep at least keeping conversation relevant or referring back to it. Unfortunately, I think that "but what if ..." section, as quoted above, doesn't really help or mean anything without supporting it with some kind of evidence or being specific about what each is. Otherwise it's just a distraction of theoretical permutations.
It's also not a strong argument against BKism as BKs will still think their experiences are the best or their god causes them all.
I have not looked for any statistics but from personal experiences of growing up in a primarily Protestant country I would say practically no one going to a church regularly is having the kinds of spiritual experiences ... and if they did, they'd run thinking it was Satan! Of course, there, immediately, you have an example of how BKs are taught to interpret 'weird and wonderful' experiences as "Godly" rather than Satanic or Luciferic (which they may well also be).
I would also say, on the basis of personal or anecdotal evidence only, that 99.8% of the people going to Buddhist meditations class and new agey events were not having any "experiences" either (and are rather disappointed by it). The first might not have sought them, but the later certainly did and there was a tendencies of the same people going to every new "teacher" who came along seeking just that "experience".
Obviously the more Pentecostal-type churches are having 'weird and wonderful' experiences but they seem to be very physical and expressive, e.g. shaking, shouting, talking in tongues etc and then you get the odd wave of odd experiences like the "Toronto Blessing" or various mass Catholic visions. Where I live we have many African churches which, although superficially "Christian", appear to be more like tribal spiritualism and in Christian Spiritualist churches, the whole point is going to witness the mediumship of spirits and experience healing.
The question of "what is personal charisma?" is something else to ask which, I suppose, does relate to this topic.
Did you find BapDada to be even charismatic, Chill?
People "stare" a lot in BK meditation and all kinds of wonders happen. The person leading meditation might disappear, or glow etc...
Yes, I agree with this, and, again, it is given a mysterious explanation and presented as evidence of 'something happening'. This takes us back to what the original posters was saying about "having a vision of BapDada entering Gulzar".
What was it they saw, or did not see, and interpreted as that? It's too easy to dismiss everything as 'just imagination' or a conjurer's trick. It might be interesting to record how each of the many people who claimed to see BapDada entering Gulzar imagined it.
Of course, overall, one of my frustrations with the BKWSU is that they don't really measure, categorize or validate experiences at all ... they just sit there going, "very good, very good ... now put some money in Baba's box or work for us". Many BKs will claim to experience "bliss" ... but what does it mean and how do they know?
chill wrote:I just want to know if any one on this forum has felt anything extraordinary in their BK days.
I remember giving the course and a young man witnessing such facial transmogrifications (changes) as you mentioned. It would happen often. One was of an old man and another of a monkey wearing a crown, and this was a young man with no knowledge of Hinduism or BKism.
I also remember giving the BK course to a very ordinary, middle aged Christian woman who was just very anxious and wanted to calm down and relax. She had "visions" of sounded like Jesus and Mary, e.g. a man with a beard and a woman with long hair ... and never came back to the center ever again! (She obviously did think it was Luciferic as many Christians believe the Toronto Blessing and similar is).
Looking back, I am left feeling a lot of "teaching" we did was spiritually unethical. We took these ordinary people off the street who just wanted "Peace of Mind" and, using a number of guiles including personal attachment, forced them through the 'BKWSU sausage making machine' ... and then if they did not convert directly, basically dismissed or discarded them afterwards.
Other typical experiences were to see clouds of white light (I guess I had that one), to lose all awareness of this world and see only golden red light (I never had that one but people did when doing the meditation with me), visions of little but very bright stars of light (I had that one, they're different from retinal problems) and a floating away feeling where you feel free from gravity and no longer like the shape of your body, e.g. you don't feel arms and legs any more.
As an aside to Pink Panther, I was reading about Japanese prisons the other day and I discovered as a 'punishment' prisoners were made to sit and stare at a particularly spot on the wall. That made me laugh. BKs would love Japanese prison. Nothing to do but sit on the spot and stare at the wall.