ShivBaba's incarnation

In the book of Advance Course it is written that after Brahma (Lekhraj Kirpalani) had visions of Vishnu, ShivBaba's first incarnation took place in a mother & she went to Sevakram & narrated to him the story of Brahma's divine visions. Then ShivBaba entered in Sevakram in order to explain the meaning of that visions.

From this story, it's clear that Shiva's first incarnation took place (in the body of that mother) after Brahma had divine visions according to Advanced Knowledge. But PBKs also claim that without the entrance of ShivBaba into a body, Brahma couldn't have had divine visions. But in this story it is not clear that entering into whose body ShivBaba gave divine visions to Brahma? Please reply whth Murli points.

In the book of Advance Course it is written that after Brahma (Lekhraj Kirpalani) had visions of Vishnu, ShivBaba's first incarnation took place in a mother & she went to Sevakram & narrated to him the story of Brahma's divine visions. Then ShivBaba entered in Sevakram in order to explain the meaning of that visions.

From this story, it's clear that Shiva's first incarnation took place (in the body of that mother) after Brahma had divine visions according to Advanced Knowledge. But PBKs also claim that without the entrance of ShivBaba into a body, Brahma couldn't have had divine visions. But in this story it is not clear that entering into whose body ShivBaba gave divine visions to Brahma? Please reply whth Murli points.

Dear Bro,

Anything else?

Then dear Brother Surya, can you tell me entering in whose body ShivBaba gave Brahma divine visions?

Then dear Brother Surya, can you tell me entering in whose body ShivBaba gave Brahma divine visions?

Dear new world Bhai.

PBKs have no answer to your queries; PBKs believe that the divine visions were noondh (destined) in drama. i had asked the same query before and i was given the reply that visions are drama-noondh.

shivsena.

In Advance Literature we read that ShivaBaba's first incarnation took place in a mother after Lekhraj Brahmababa was given divine visions. Then she went to Sevakram & narrated him the story of Brahma's divine visions. And then ShivBaba entered into Sevakram.

Thus first incarnation of ShivBaba took place in that mother & not in the Father - Sevakram. Thus the very first seed of confluence aged drama was sowed by ShivBaba through that mother & not through the Father. But PBK say that soul of Sevakram is the corporeal seed of the corporeal world & the Father. Tell me, to lay the foundation of Confluence Age, in whose body Shiva's first entrance should take place? In the Father's body (seed of humanity) or in that mother's body?

It's simple logic that the foundation of any tree is laid through its seed & not through another parts of that body. If soul of Sevakram is the corporeal seed, then ShivBaba must have to take his entry in Sevakram (seed) to lay the foundation of Kalpa Vriksha (tree of human world). So first entrance of ShivBaba in that mother cannot be logically accepted.

In Advance Literature we read that at the first time ShivBaba entered in the body of a mother after Lekhraj Brahmababa was given divine visions. Then that mother went to Sevakram. And then ShivBaba entered in Sevakram.

PBKs also believe that the soul of Sevakram is the corporeal seed of the corporeal world & the Father of humanity.

Its the very simple logic that the foundation of any tree is always laid through its seed & not through any part of that tree. So the foundation of the Confluence Aged Kalpa Tree must be laid by Shiva by entering in the seed (Ram Father) of that Kalpa tree. But the PBK story depicts first incarnation of Shiva in that mother, who is not the seed of Kalpa tree. This is not logical.

Thus the shooting of folk stories like those in the Puranas, by formulating stories of Sevakram, Gita mata etc.

In Advance Literature we read that at the first time ShivBaba entered in the body of a mother after Lekhraj Brahmababa got divine visions. Then that mother went to Sevakram. And then ShivBaba entered in Sevakram ...

Hi new world, your posts are interesting and for the most part you seem to be having a 'conversation' aimed exclusively at the PBKs. However, the forum can be read by anyone and I find myself struggling to make out the general direction of your sharing.

Personally, I am an open-minded person who recognises that I am in some sort of revisionist - if not outright exiting - phase of my Spiritual study with the BKWSU, so forgive me if i reveal my ignorance but these PBK falk (folk?) stories to which you refer. What is the point? Do do you mean tall tales as in 'stories not to be trusted' aka lies? Or do you refer - in an unbiased way - to the inconsistencies in the PBK accounts of its own origins?

From my BK student perspective, it appears as if you are saying that the PKBs say that Sevakram is Brahma. Do I understand your words correctly? And you go on to say that PBK folk stories state that Brahma Baba first got divine visions, then Shiv Baba entered some lady, then Shiv Baba entered Mr. Sevakram. And you cite this sequence as indicative of the fact that they (the PBKs) must be wrong about Sevakram because Shiva only enters the soul who is the corporeal seed of the corporeal world & the Father of humanity. And so that mother must be the corporeal seed of the corporeal world & the Father of humanity. Do I understand correctly?

Okay, you may be right and I am no expert in these matters of soul hosting another soul from some other dimension. However I do seem to recall the BKWSU Murli once attributing to Shiv Baba words to the effect that He does sometimes enter the children to do service. From this point I understand that Shiva can enter ANY one of us whenever HE chooses if He feels it is necessary for the sake of service. (We may not even be aware that He entered) Am i right? Personally, if God says it happens then i believe that it does happen. Do you recall any Murli point to that effect? (I really hope that the Murli is God's word or else i am talking absolute nonsense - as usual).

I must confess that I am not at all interested in whether Shiva enters me or anyone else for that matter because that churning will not help me to purify my sanskaras. is not the purification of our sanskaras the primary purpose of Raja Yoga as a system of meditation?

If Shiva enters that lady - as God Himself says HE sometimes does and can do with any of us - then, she or you or the PBKs would have to provide some other proof to support the idea that she is the Chariot of Shiv Baba. I believe that the status of Chariot is of an altogether different dimension than that of a soul who Shiva may enter for the sake of service.

Failing that you can you provide some more information that supports YOUR belief that PBKs ought to regard that mother as the the corporeal seed of the corporeal world & the Father (Mother?) of humanity. What proof do we have that Shiva is God? Or that Shiva entered Brahma Baba?

If your review of the PBK folklore reveals that because ShivBaba entered in the body of a mother after Lekhraj Brahmababa got divine visions so she must also be the seed of the human world tree; but instead, for malicious reasons or plain ignorance the PBKs confer that status upon the head of Mr. Sevakram; can you provide more information about this please? Otherwise, if the intent of your post was to rubbish (my word) the PBKs 'folklore' then you ought to try a bit harder or give us some points that can stand up to scrutiny. Please keep posting.

I am not a PBK sympathiser, nor rabidly anti-BK, or anti-anything for that matter. I am just a soul expressing itself in cyberspace. Are you from the Vishnu Party or are you a BK "trying to redress some percieved imbalance" by pointing out the inconsistencies in the PBK version of events and knowledge? Or are you yourself 'exiting' the PBK and so are posting with a PBK-critical mindest (nothing wrong with that my doctor told me that a critical faculty is definitely important when it comes to these matter otherwise one may not really understand why one stands for the things one stands for.

If you are like me, a soul with no agenda except for the development of spiritual character, then we continue to talk and see how it goes. I am sure that I will learn something because you appear very knowledgeable on a whole range of matters, however on this topic I need a bit of help to understand the foundation of your assertion. Thanks.
OS

My dear dear bro abrahma Kumar,

Thanks. Your curiousity & intelligence are unquestionable.

Really I don't belong to any of these parties - BK, PBK. PPBK (of Satish Mehta, Mumbai), Vishnu Party (Ahmedabad), inadvance party (of Ramakant, Aurangabad) or Navin Modi's party (Ahmedabad). I've tired of these parties. So I am practising Godly knowledge individually. All my articles are my own research.

I agree with PBKs that the Kalpa tree symbolically represents the history of the Confluence Age Drama of 100 years. But its a fact that the very first episode of the history of any tree starts with the seed of that tree. But PBKs folk story depicts that the very first episode of the history of Confluence Age Kalpa Tree began with the event of Lekhraj Brahmababa's divine visions & entrance of incorporeal Shiva in the body of a mother. After that episode Sevakram enters on the stage of Confluence Age Drama. But none of both - Lekhraj Brahma & that mother - is the seed of the Kalpa tree (according to PBKs). If the soul of Sevakram is the seed of the Kalpa Tree, then the very first scene of the Confluence Age Drama must have to start with the entry of Sevakram (and not with the role of secondary characters like Lekhraj Brahma or that mother). This is wrong PBK interpretation.

Dear bro, either you or me or anybody else may or may not be the Chariot of Shiva. But this is not subject matter of this article. The central theme of this article is to ask PBKs, 'by whose very first entry in the very first scene of the Confluence Age drama, the history of Kalpa tree started?

Waiting for your reply.

Really I don't belong to any of these parties - BK, PBK. PPBK (of Satish Mehta, Mumbai), Vishnu Party (Ahmedabad), inadvance party (of Ramakant, Aurangabad) or Navin Modi's party (Ahmedabad). I've tired of these parties. So I am practising Godly knowledge individually. All my articles are my own research.

Hi new world, I raised a query about this in the Commonroom thread "BKWSU breakaway groups". Thanks.

In the book of Advance Course it is written that after Brahma (Dada Lekhraj) had visions of Vishnu, ShivBaba's first incarnation took place in a mother & she went to Sevakram & narrated to him the story of Brahma's divine visions. Then ShivBaba entered in Sevakram in order to explain the meaning of that visions.

Dear new world Bhai.

This is one of the biggest lies in Advanced Knowledge, that Shivbap first entered into one mata to narrate the story of Brahma's visions. There is no proof in any Murli which describe the events in the beginning. I feel that this is again the manthan of Krishna's soul, who has invented the Advanced Knowledge, and if any PBK has any proof (in Murlis) of what really happened in the beginning of the Yagya, then let him come forward with Murli quotes of Shivbap.

shivsena.

Thanks guys, This topic is beyond me. Much Godly regards.

Dear Brother new_world

If you take the example of The Human World Tree and The Seed and that first comes 'the seed', then we have to keep in mind that before that there must be 'the earth' where 'the seed' can be sown. Because even the seed comes out of the earth, then it again comes back in the earth, is it not?

All soul-like seeds belong to the Brahm element. So first is the earth. It is said, "first is the mother". It is said that, "Prajapita has to hear from Brahma first, so that he can become first Brahmin". The earth is also imperishable isn’t it? So which is first, 'the earth' or 'the seed'? If we take the non-living earth, then it is made of five elements and the seed also is made of the same five elements. The seed itself is part of the earth. Everything is part of the earth.

The mother is mother to everyone including the Father.

Dear bro Andrey,

Then you say that the mother is the earth, where can The Seed (The Father of the Human Tree) be sown? Now the earth is always mighty than the seed, though both are made of the same 5 elements, then the mother must be mighty than the Father. But the whole Advance Philosophy is based on the superiority of the Father.

Again the earth is not a branch of a tree. Then if the mother is the earth, where the seed of the human tree (the Father) can be sown, then the mother is not a branch of human tree i.e., she must not be a soul of human being & she must belong to super-human breed. But she is a soul of human being. And being a human soul,

1) either she is a branch of The Tree (in this case she is less mighty than the Father - the seed; as the seed is mighty than any branch of that tree),
2)or she is the a part of the seed (combined with the Father). In this case her might may be equal to or greater than that of the Father. But PBKs cannot accept the superiority of the mother).

But in these both cases, the motherhoodness of that mother is bound to the human tree. But the attributes of the earth are not bound to The Tree. Thus the mother is not the earth.

Then the imperishable incorporeal Shiva may be the earth which supplies the nutrituous food of incorporeal stage to the human tree (through the seed). Now the earth & seeds are made of the same elements. Then the seed of the human tree - soul of the Father (alone or combined with mother?) & the earth (the soul of the incorporeal Shiva) must have to be made of the the same elements, which is Brahm element according to you. HERE THE EARTH ( INCORPOREAL Shiva) IS NOT A BRANCH OF HUMAN TREE. He is super human. But the mother is a part of the human tree.

Let's discuss about the Brahmin birth of Prajapita in the next article.

New world wrote, " Let's discuss about the Brahmin birth of Prajapita in the next article."

Excuse me, I am just tidying up my stuff here to go but, to base this conversation on reality rather than well practised tautology, could you please do so after reading over the History forum regarding the;

"Prajapati God Brahma",
the 1932 start to the satsangs,
Lekhraj Kirpalani's revised date of birth and
A Shewakram as the indebted sleeping partner stuff and Narain Shewakram part of the Anti-Party?

I would really like to balance the original BKWSU evidence to date with PBK POV.

Thanks.

In Advance Literature we read that ShivaBaba's first incarnation took place in a mother after Lekhraj Brahmababa was given divine visions. Then she went to Sevakram & narrated him the story of Brahma's divine visions. And then ShivBaba entered into Sevakram.

The initial entry of Shiv in the mother was not to lay the seed of knowledge but to lay the foundation of Bhakti. It was only through Dada Lekhraj's partner that the Shiv first laid the seed of knowledge, and hence he happens to be the seed of human tree.

Besides it is also said in the Advanced Knowledge that the above two processes take place within fraction of seconds of each other. So, it cannot be said as to which took place first and which took place latter.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun