Remembering Shiva

Dear Anamik Bhai

It is said in Murli the most important thing is to remember ShivaBaba and yet still after 70 years you are saying it doesn't matter in what way?
So what have the 70 years of Gods descent been for so far?

I was not disturbed by the dates given by Dixitji. But yes. When Dixitji started telling that second part of ShivBaba is completing and another personality will be revealed in the near future. It made me to think. Love is one thing, and Knowledge is another thing. I still Love Dixitji. But will not believe what he says. I have started to read and churn The Knowledge myself and have stopped believing without giving thinking over it myself. And I expect and want others also to do so.

Can you explain what these dates were you were given and specifically why you stopped believing Virendra Dev Dixit?

Now you may ask, then who comes in Mt. Abu in seasons. To this my answer is the following Murli point.
In English: You people feed brahman (There is custom in India of feeding brahman after death of relatives thinking that the soul comes to have the food through the brahman). Call the Aatma, is'nt it. All this is recorded in the drama. It is not that the soul comes leaving it's (next) body. This custom is in the drama. There is nothing to confuse in it.

Can you explain in what way this shows who comes to Mt Abu as BapDada?

Avyakt Vani dt. 30.6.74 :

and why are you quoting Avyakt Vani, can you please clarify, maybe using plain language?

In Hindi there is a saying " Khud ko jaano to Khuda ko jaano." Meaning - Know thyself so that you can know God.

Thank you, but I have no interest in what Hindus have said, only what ShivaBaba has said.
Om Shanti Bhai

Dear Anamik Bhai

It is said in Murli the most important thing is to remember ShivaBaba and yet still after 70 years you are saying it doesn't matter in what way?
So what have the 70 years of Gods descent been for so far?

Dear John,
As per my knowledge, the way of remembering ShivBaba has changed from time to time, and the accurate way of remembering ShivBaba is possible when The final Mukarrar Rath is disclosed. This is what I know.

Ragarding dates, it was discussed in this forum, about dates given by Dixitji about shooting period, and it was said that many left because of the dates being false or that the dates were changed. So I wrote that I have not stopped believing Dixitji because of it.

I do'nt know who comes in Dadiji and how tells Avyakt Vani. But as they are taken as proof of knowledge I have quoted from Avyakt Vani.

You see I am not omniscient, and do'nt feel any shame by telling that I do'nt know something. It is better to accept that I do'nt know, rather than teeling wrong things. Also I am telling my gut-feelings, but I do'nt know how much they are correct. O.K.

Yours,
Anamik

Shri Nagraj?
Who does he represent and for how long?

As I have already intimated in other posts, Shri Nagraj of Hyderabad (South India) is the head of an off shoot of Vishnu Party led by Shri Dashrath Patel of Ahmedabad (Western India). Although he severed connections with Shri Dashrath Patel soon after joining his group, but his group began existence in the year 2000, I suppose. He/his followers claim that he is the point of light Shiv who is the corporeal/incorporeal Father of Brahma (Dada Lekhraj), Shankar (Baba Virendra Dev Dixit) and Vishnu (Dashrath Patel). Unlike BKs who do subtle Bhakti, Shri Nagraj and his followers practice Hindu Bhakti in gross form under the pretext that we have to do the rehearsal for the 2500 years Bhakti in the broad drama.

I am referring to the heads of the splinter groups as 'Shri' because I don't know if they would like themselves to be referred to as ex-PBKs or ex-BKs. 'Shri' is a word commonly used to address anyone respectfully in India.

Arjun.
Can you provide the Murli quotes that describe that ShivaBaba should be remembered in the Chariot?

Yes, here is one such quote from last year's Sakar Murli published by the BKs:

• "Yah ShivBaba ka Yagya hai. Toh Maat-Pita ikatthey hain. In Mama Baba say toh kuch bhi nahee miltaa. Behad kay baap say hee sab kuch miltaa hai. Vah ek hai. Mama Baba kahaa jaata hai shareerdhaari ko. Niraakaar ko toh shareer hai nahee. Toh Baap kahtey hain ki saakaar kaa bhi mureed mat bano. Yaad maamekam ko karo.....Mahima ek kee hee hai. Unkay sadkey inka maan hai. Tumko koi bhi dehdhaari ko Yaad nahee karnaa hai. Dehdhaari say unka parichay miltaa hai. Lekin Yaad unko karnaa hai. Baba bhi dehdhaari hai, sab parichay detey hain. Parantu bahut aisey bhi besamajh bachhey hain jo kahtey hain ham toh direct ShivBaba kee prerana say gyaan ley saktey hain. Agar aisa hota toh fir is rath may unko aaney kee kyaa darkaar padee hai. Aisey bhi hain jo samajhtey hain is saakaar say hamaara kyaa kaam. Baap kahtey hain manmanaabhav. Unko Yaad karo parantu through toh inkay kahtey hain na." (BKs dwara prakaashit revised Sakar Murli taareekh 16.03.06, page 1 & 2)


“This is a Yagya of ShivBaba. So Mother and Father are together. Nothing is achieved through this Mamma-Baba. Everything is achieved from the unlimited Father. He is one. Mamma-Baba are said to be bodily beings (dehdhaari). The incorporeal one does not have a body. So Father says that do not become the followers (mureed) of the corporeal. Remember none but one (maamekam)....The praises are for ‘one’ only. This corporeal is respected because of Him. You must not remember any bodily being. His introduction is received through the bodily being. But we must remember Him. Baba is also a bodily being. He gives the entire introduction. But there are many such ignorant children who say that we can obtain direct knowledge with the inspiration of ShivBaba. Had it been so, then where is the need for Him to come in this Chariot? There are such people also who think that we do not have any dealing with the corporeal. Father says Manmanaabhav. Remember Him, but it is said ‘through Him’, isn’t it?” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 16.03.06, page 1 & 2 published by BKs)

It may kindly be noted that the English word 'through' has been used as it is by ShivBaba in the Hindi Murli to emphasise the importance of remembering the incorporeal 'through' the corporeal.

If you feel this is not convincing, I will try to quote another Murli point.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

You see I am not omniscient, and do'nt feel any shame by telling that I do'nt know something. It is better to accept that I do'nt know, rather than teeling wrong things. Also I am telling my gut-feelings, but I do'nt know how much they are correct. O.K.

Your honesty is appreciated

Ragarding dates, it was discussed in this forum, about dates given by Dixitji about shooting period, and it was said that many left because of the dates being false or that the dates were changed. So I wrote that I have not stopped believing Dixitji because of it.

Ahh OK, it was from this forum itself that you got the information about the date changes. I thought maybe you had some new information, which could be added for better understanding of the date situation.

As per my knowledge, the way of remembering ShivBaba has changed from time to time, and the accurate way of remembering ShivBaba is possible when The final Mukarrar Rath is disclosed. This is what I know.

May I ask where you got the information of the changing ways of remembering ShivaBaba and also from when you started as a BK?

It is Avyakt Vani of 1974, and it is clearly stated that Brahma i.e. Dada Lekharaj's soul has to complete his duty of creating all races of human beings. And the word "JAGATPITA" is used for Brahma. It means that although Brahma ( Dada Lekharaj) has left his corporeal body in 1969 January, still he cannot play another part other than of Brahma. But as you know Jagatpita has to be in this Jagat (world) with His own body so as to be called as JagatPita. So it is clear that Brahma (Dada Lekharaj) even though lef his Body in January 1969, he has taken rebirth and have his own another physical body at present. So, now coming to your query of temporary and Mukarrar Rath, my answer is that the Body by name of Dada Lekharaj was temporary rath and the body which that soul has taken after January 1969 is The Mukarrar Rath or Bhageerath (lucky Chariot) of Supreme Soul Shiv.

Dear Anamik Bhai,
Omshanti. I agree that Brahma's role is fixed in the drama till the end. But does he necessarily have to take rebirth to complete his role? I don't think so. And the answer has been given by BapDada in the Avyakt Vani dated 21.1.69.

"Aap sochtey hongey ki log poochengey aapka Brahma Baba 100 varsh say pehley hee chalaa gayaa. Yah oh bahut sahaj prashna hai koi mushkil nahee. 100 kay nazdeek hee toh aayu thi. Yah jo 100 varsh kahey huay hain yah galat nahee hain. Agar kuch rahaa hua hai toh aakaar dwara poora karengey. 100 varsh Brahma kee sthaapanaa ka part hai. Vah toh 100 varsh poora hona hee hai."

"You might be thinking that the people would ask that your Brahma Baba departed before (completing) 100 years. This is a very easy question. There is no difficulty. The age was nearing 100 years. The 100 years which has been mentioned is not wrong. If anything is yet to be accomplished, it would be accomplished through the subtle (body). Brahma's role in establishment is for 100 years. Those 100 years are bound to be completed."

If anyone has the compilation of the Avyakt Vanis pertaining to the year 1969 published by BKs originally in English, they can produce the official translation.

Moreover, the soul of Brahma, like many other senior BKs have, throughout their Brahmin life strived to imbibe purity and abhorred sex. So, how can they take rebirth in this world through sex-lust???

As regards Brahma being referred to as 'Jagatpita' is concerned, it is not for the soul of Dada Lekhraj because the soul of Dada Lekhraj (Brahma) has been repeatedly referred to in the Sakar Murlis as Brahma or Badee Maa or Jagdamba. Since the body of Dada Lekhraj was a male body, his soul could not actually play the role of Jagdamba and be worshipped as Jagdamba in the Bhaktimarg, but after leaving his body he enters into a Brahmakumari and then plays the role of Jagdamba till the end of the Confluence Age until the gates of heaven are opened through her and other mothers.

You have asked whether I know about the final Chariot. Yes I feel that it is the Chariot of Dada Lekharaj in his next birth. But which is his present body or who is he at present that I do'nt know.

Brother, you may not be willing to spill the beans now, but I am pretty sure that you know where Dada Lekhraj has taken rebirth.

If you really mean that you don't know, then is all the churning that you are presenting here, your own churning or have you heard it from someone else? If it is your own churning, then can I humbly know if any other soul(s) has/have accepted your churning.

If you do not know where Dada Lekhraj has taken rebirth, then how do you plan to recognize that Chariot? Or do you believe that some person would come and claim to be Dada Lekhraj's reincarnation, just as you believe that Dada Lekhraj claimed to be the Chariot of Shiv?

Eagerly awaiting your replies,
Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

Dear Arjun Bhai, you have said about me as sympathiser of BK's. I would like to say that first of all I have sympathy towards myself, and next I sympathise all the rest of the world, including BK's, PBK's, my family members and other people of this world. Do'nt you see the sufferings all over the world and feel it.

Dear Brother, Omshanti. Please do not take my words otherwise. I only wanted to know the group to which you belong based on your writings, since you are not willing to reveal your affiliations openly. As regards sympathising with the world, I agree with you fully. And to add to what you have written, we should have sympathy for the mother nature and its constituents like the animals and birds also.

Yesterday and today the TV news channels of India have reported how the public at some places in India have killed Leopards who accidentally or deliberately strayed into human habitations. And all that was captured live on the TV for the first time. It was really pathetic and some Wildlife activists claimed in TV interviews that it is a national shame.

It shows how selfish and merciless human being has become.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

Now talking about Hiranyakashyap. I still stick to my point that ShivBaba has called only those people as Hiranyakashyap who call themselves as Shiv. ShivBaba has taken only the responsibility of Dada Lekharaj for whatever is told through him. In my opinion you are doing mistake by thinking Dada Lekharaj as Hiranykasyap. There is difference in acknowledging that ShivBaba is using his/her body to do service and boasting of onself as the Chariot of ShivBaba. What problem is there for Dixitji to once acknowledge himself as the Mukarrar Rath of ShivBaba. Why is he wasting time in indirectly proving himself as ShivBaba's Mukarrar Rath. Is it his guilty consciousness which is stopping him from doing so. Why has not ShivBaba even once said in the class through Dixitji that He takes responsiblity of that Chariot (Dixitji) throughout this 30 years.

Dear Anamik Bhai,
Omshanti. Please don't misquote me. I have not termed Dada Lekhraj as Hiranyakashyap. I have only given the meaning of Hiranyakashyap from the mythological point of view and from a PBK point of view. It is you who are claiming that Shiv has declared Dada Lekhraj to be his only Chariot and that Dada Lekhraj has boasted himself to be Chariot of ShivBaba.

Although there are many sentences in the Murlis which may hint towards the fact that Dada Lekhraj accepted himself as the Chariot of Shiv. But nowhere has he openly boasted of being the Chariot of Shiv. Nor has ShivBaba declared openly 'BY NAME' in any of the Sakar Murlis that Dada Lekhraj is his only Chariot. If you could quote Murlis in support of your statements it would be nice.

As regards your challenge to Baba Virendra Dev Dixit to declare himself as the Chariot of Shiv, I think he would never do it. If that reduces his chance of becoming the Chariot of Shiv or if it increases the chance of the so-called reincarnation of Dada Lekhraj then I don't think that Baba Virendra Dev Dixit or PBKs would be concerned.

If the Murli point that you have quoted above regarding summoning of departed souls to feed them is to prove that who is entering into Gulzar Dadi, and if it is Dada Lekhraj who leaves his reincarnation (i.e. the next body) temporarily to narrate Avyakt Vanis through Gulzar Dadi, then why has he not claimed BY NAME in any of the Avyakt Vanis that it is Dada Lekhraj's soul who is narrating it?

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

Accurate rememberance is only possible by accurate knowledge of self soul and Mukarrar Rath of The Supreme Soul. Why waste our time till Mukarrar Rath is revealed. Till that time we can know ourself i.e. what is aakari stage, what is beej roop, what is bindi roop. This knowledge cannot be told, we have to experience ourself by practicing for it. Company of people who are in that stage helps us to attain that stage ourself. Best bet is the company of our own self i.e. soul. We should have Love and yearning for That soul conscious stage. By having knowledge of these different stages and their experience we can accurately understand and remember ShivBaba when The Mukarrar Rath will be revealed.

On the one side you are telling that "Accurate rememberance is only possible by accurate knowledge of self soul and Mukarrar Rath of The Supreme Soul" and on the other side you are telling that why waste our time till the Mukarrar Rath is revelaed. Both the statements seem to be contradictory.

If we could know The Knowledge ourself then where is the need for Father Shiv to come from the Soul World to this Earth???? And for Dada Lekhraj to reincarnate????

If the company of numberwise soul conscious people (which may also mean numberwise body conscious people) could help us in attaining the subtle or seed stage or point-like form then where was the need for ShivBaba to take a divine incarnation???? I think there were much more soul conscious people in the Copper Age than many of us Brahmin souls. Then why did we degrade to such a low level in the first instance?????

As regards waiting for a illusionary Mukarrar rath (whom neither I nor you know) to get revealed I would say a bird in hand is better than two in the bush.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

Revised Sakar Murli 30/03/04

... "Om Shanti. The Father sits here and explains to you souls. He remembers the soul and also the body. The soul without a body cannot be remembered" ...

... "You ask: How can we remember Baba? Should we remember ShivaBaba in the body of Brahma or in the supreme abode? Many have this question. Baba says: It is the soul that you have to remember. However, you would also definitely remember the body." ...

So there it is in Black and white, ShivaBaba should be remembered through the body. Anyone with any Murli points that contradict this?

Bro. John,
Omshanti. That is a good research work. It supports the theory advocated under the Advanced Knowledge of PBKs.
Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

In the Murli that I was listening to yesterday at the mini Madhuban, Baba said one can remember Baba even in the latrine. Baba asked - does a child forget his/her Father while sitting in the latrine? He/she doesn't. Similarly, you children can also remember Baba even while sitting in the latrine.

I had quoted the above line from a clarification Murli narrated by ShivBaba (through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit). Now I have found the same line in a revised Sakar Murli dated 27.4.07 pg. 3 published by the BKs.

"Chaltey firtey Yaad may rahney ka abhyaas karnaa hai. Latrince may bhi Yaad kar saktey ho. Yaad say bal mitaa hai."

"One must practice to be in remembrance while walking and moving. You can remember even in the latrine. One gets power through remembrance."

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

• "Baba aatmaon say baat kartey hain. Aatma na kah jeevatma kahengey kyonki jab aatma akeli hai toh bol nahee saktee. Sharir bigar aatma, aatma say baat nahee kartee. Paramdham may kya Parmatma aatma say baat karengey? Bhal kah detey Christ ko Parmatma nay bheja parantu vahaan Parmatma boltaa nahee hai, vahaan ishara bhi nahee hota. Drama anusaar aatma aapey hee part bajaaney neechey aa jaati hai. Aatma may part bhara hua hai. Toh aatma neechey aakar sharir dhaaran kar part bajaati hai." (BKs dwara prakaashit revised Sakar Murli taareekh 08.10.07, pg 1&2)

• “Baba speaks to the souls. Instead of aatma (soul) it will be called a jeevatma (a living soul, i.e. soul+body) because when a soul is single (i.e. without body) it cannot speak. Without a body, a soul does not speak to (another) soul. Will the Supreme Soul talk to the soul in the Supreme Abode? Although it is said that Christ was sent (to Earth) by the Supreme Soul, but there the Supreme Soul does not speak. There is not even a gesture there. As per drama a soul comes down on its own to play its part. The part (i.e. role) is.recorded in the soul. So the soul comes down and plays its part by assuming a body.” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 08.10.07, pg 1&2 published by BKs)

- After 1969, BKs are taught that they can go to the Supreme Abode during meditation (with the help of RajYoga commentary) and talk to ShivBaba. But Baba is Himself asking in the above Murli that will the Supreme Soul talk to the soul in the Supreme Abode? So is it correct to remember ShivBaba as a point of light in the Supreme Abode? Or is it correct to remember the incorporeal Father Shiv who has come in a corporeal Chariot?

Revised Sakar Murli 30/03/04

... "Om Shanti. The Father sits here and explains to you souls. He remembers the soul and also the body. The soul without a body cannot be remembered" ...

... "You ask: How can we remember Baba? Should we remember ShivaBaba in the body of Brahma or in the supreme abode? Many have this question. Baba says: It is the soul that you have to remember. However, you would also definitely remember the body." ...

So there it is in Black and white, ShivaBaba should be remembered through the body. Anyone with any Murli points that contradict this?

Dear john Bhai.

You are very right that nirakar ShivBaba cannot be remembered without a body; but the question arises who is this nirakar ShivBaba and through which body should he be remembered??; BK remember bindishivbaba through Lekhraj Kirpalani and PBKs remember bindishivbaba through Virendra Dev Dixit, but both have resulted girti-kala of the soul and no burning of sins is taking place; so who knows that some other form of accurate rememberence may materialise in future (which will take the souls in chadti-kala and burn their sins and purify them).

shivsena.