ShivBaba and Prajapita

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suryavanshi

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Re: ShivBaba and Prajapita

Post20 Mar 2008

shivsena wrote:According to you Ram is the child of Shiva and Krishna is the child and wife of Shiva. Now please tell me who is the elder child (badaa Bhai) out of the two and who is being taught RajYoga by Shiva? Also please clarify how Shiva is using the body of Veerendra Dev Dixit to create the mouth born children PBKs(Prajapita mukh-vanshavali)?

Dear Brother,

elder child is Soul of Ram and RajYoga is taught by Shiva to both of them.

Shiva through Virendra Dev Dixit has adopted Brahma or Jagdamba and through them (both Sakar Mother and Father) Sakar Prajapita Brahma Mukhvanshavali are created.
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arjun

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Re: ShivBaba and Prajapita

Post21 Mar 2008

Dear suryavanshi Bhai,
Omshanti. In some of your recent posts nothing was visible in the quotes except inverted commas. When I checked I found out that you had pressed the quote button twice.

So, whenever you are making quotes press the quote button only once and paste the matter to be quoted in between the two quote marks, i.e.;
Code: Select all
[quote] and [/quote]

And in order to save space on this forum, whenever you make a quote please do not leave a line before starting the actual text.
Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

shivsena

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Re: ShivBaba and Prajapita

Post22 Mar 2008

suryavanshi wrote:elder child is Soul of Ram and RajYoga is taught by Shiva to both of them. Shiva through Veerendra Dev Dixit has adopted Brahma or Jagdamba and through them (both Sakar Mother and Father) Sakar Prajapita Brahma Mukhvanshavali are created.

Dear suryavanshi Bhai.

This is the first time i am hearing that Ram is elder Brother. I always thought that Krishna is elder Brother (Dada). Can you quote any Murli which says that Ram is elder Brother and that Ram is learning RajYoga by Shiva?

Also in ''BapDada'', Ram becomes bap and Krishna becomes elder Brother. Now you say that both Ram and Krishna are Brothers. Why this ambiguity???

arjun wrote: Omshanti. Suryavanshi Bhai has mentioned ShivBaba as Gyaan Soorya (Sun of Knowledge), but I doubt if it is ShivBaba or just the soul of Ram because the incorporeal Shiv cannot be compared with anyone. It is the human souls who can be compared with each other as Sun, Moon or Stars. As regards the Dhruv Tara (Pole Star) that is a different comparison (comparison between all the star-like human souls) and not to be included in this comparison between Sun, Moon and Stars.

Dear arjun Bhai.
Thanks for your views.
If you say that among all the souls, Ram is Gyan surya and will attain 100% nirakari stage and become like Shiva and get all the titles of Shiva, then how come during the shooting period Ram is prajapita (saakari), and Bharat (brashtachari) and no.1 patit-kami-kanta as per Advanced Knowledge. This is what i am not able to understand. Can you please clarify this?

shivsena.

suryavanshi

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Re: ShivBaba and Prajapita

Post22 Mar 2008

This is the first time i am hearing that Ram is elder Brother. I always thought that Krishna is elder Brother (Dada). Can you quote any Murli which says that Ram is elder Brother and that Ram is learning RajYoga by Shiva? Also in ''BapDada'', Ram becomes bap and Krishna becomes elder Brother. Now you say that both Ram and Krishna are Brothers. Why this ambiguity???

It was not said in above response that elder child = elder borther. Elder child is Soul of Ram(refer below) and Elder Brother is Soul of Krishna(Brahma).There is no ambiguity.

"Accha.Kumarka Bataaon ShivBaba ke kitne bacchen hain? ... ShivBaba ke do bacche hain . Brahma aur Shankar"
And in " Trimurti Brahma, Vishnu and Shankar , sabse badaa hain Shankar ... " i.e eldest is Shankar. Aur Shankar kuch nahi kartaa as per Murli ... sirf Yaad kartein huaain dikhaatein hain ... and Soul of Ram has only one job to remember Shiv as much as possible ...

So, soul of Ram is the eldest child of Shiv. But Soul of Ram is also the Father of human tree. So, relation of each soul (including soul of Brahma/Krishna) with the soul of Ram is of Father and son. So, our relation with soul of Ram is of Father and son and soul of Krishna is our elder Brother(badaa Bhai)

shivsena

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Re: ShivBaba and Prajapita

Post23 Mar 2008

Dear Brother.

This is again a misconception in the minds of PBKs that Shankar= Ram's soul=prajapita.

According to Advanced Knowledge Shankar's role is mixed part and played through the body of Virendra Dev Dixit and not by the soul of Ram. Also according to Murlis, Shankar is is a subtle deity and cannot be saakari and prajapita is saakari and cannot be in Subtle Region; also it is said in Murlis that ''Brahma hai prajapita, Shankar ko prajapita nahin kahenge''. So how can PBKs say that Ram = prajapita = Shankar. It is true that all roles will be played through the body of Virendra Dev Dixit, but one has to identify which soul is playing which role? Otherwise there is no difference bewteen gyanmarg and Bhakti marg. This is the ambiguity in Advanced Knowledge.

shivsena.

suryavanshi

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Re: ShivBaba and Prajapita

Post23 Mar 2008

Dear Brother,

Ambiguity is created but there is no ambiguity. Refer to the above Murli point again where ShivBaba is talking to Kumarka. It is cited below in complete detail.

"Kumarka! Bataa aon -ShivBaba ke kitne bacche hain ? koi kahtaa hain 500 karod hain, koi kahtein hain ek Brahma bacchaa hain. Yah bhi gunjaaeesh hain.Main kahtaa hoon-ShivBaba ke do bacche hain kyonki Brahma -wah toh Vishnu ban jaatein hain. Baaki rahaa Shankar- toh do huain na ? " mu 15/5/1977

Here, ShivBaba is pointing out that Shankar is His child and Brahma is also His child.Now, here He is not referring to Shankar as mixed part here because if it was referred to mixed part then He should have said that He has only one child Shankar because if Shankar is mixed then, soul of Brahma is also playing its part and soul of Ram is also playing its part. Since both the souls are in one, He should have said that He has only one child Shankar(since by saying one child Shankar, both Brahma and Soul of Ram come in one name, i.e.Shankar). But He has said that He has two child -- Shankar and Brahma and not just one . So, definitely Shankar refers to one soul here, since Brahma (soul of Krishna) is already mentioned separately as a second child here and other soul is Shiv in Shankar and Shiv cannot be a child of Shiv. So, only soul of Ram remains and therefore, "Shankar" refers to soul of Ram here. Another evidence of Ram being called Shankar is that Shankar is always shown to be deeply in meditation or remembrance of One. Now, who is in deep remembrance in the Body of Virendra Dev Dixit ? It is definitely soul of Ram and not soul of Brahma or soul of Shiv because it is soul of Ram only who can attain baap(Shiv) samaan stage and become equal to Him (Shiv) by remembrance.

shivsena

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Re: ShivBaba and Prajapita

Post24 Mar 2008

Dear Brother.

Your argument about Shankar being the child of Shiva again shows the confusion and ignorance in the minds of PBKs about what Shiva speaks in Murlis. PBKs have this habit of seeing at only one Murli point and arriving at a conclusion. They convienently forget to see other Murlis points and fail to co-relate them with each other. It is also said in Murlis that "Shankar is not prajapita" and by believing that ''Ram is Shankar'' and ''Ram is prajapita", PBKs contradict their own beliefs and dis-respect the Murlis of Shiva. PBKs have this habit of quoting and remembering only those points which prove that Advanced Knowledge is the correct explanation of Murlis, but the truth is that the whole Advanced Knowledge is just a bundle of contradictions and ambiguities invented by mayavi Krishna to take the PBKs away from the practical form of Ramshivbaba (by teaching that Ram is prajapita).

When this fact will be known in the end, then all PBKs who have been thinking that bindi is ShivBaba (like BKs)will have to repent and then the bhakti-marg sayings "SO NEAR YET SO FAR" AND "THE GREATEST DARKNESS IS BELOW THE LAMP" will be aptly fitting on those PBKs who have identified Ram's body but have not understood his 100% nirakari stage as Ramshivbaba.
'
'SO WAKE UP BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE". This is my sincere appeal to all PBKs".

shivsena.
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andrey

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Re: ShivBaba and Prajapita

Post24 Mar 2008

Shivsena is double Gyan Surya, because the Sun of Knowledge gives the light of knowledge to those who are in the darkness of ignorance. For us there is darkness now, but we don't even realize, so we are in double darkness - the situation he describes. There cannot be light for us now and for anyone, from anywhere. What we think to be light is even more darkness, he says. Everywhere with everyone there are only misconceptions over misconceptions. Truth is only in the Murli, but it is only shivsena so far who has churned it to derive the light of the new idea and to present it to us.

At the moment, or in the past (maybe in future too) as there is no star in the sky to match the light of the sun, this way from nowhere else we can receive the light of enlightment now but only from the Sun of Knowledge shivsena who may not say like this from his mouth, that I am the Sun of Knowledge, but from his actions it becomes visible that where from the light of knowledge is coming at present. We have to follow this double light. :wink:

shivsena

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Re: ShivBaba and Prajapita

Post24 Mar 2008

andrey wrote: Truth is only in the Murli, but it is only shivsena so far who has churned it to derive the light of the new idea and to present it to us.

Yes - Truth is only in the Murlis of Shiva and in code form. If you too start churning the Murlis and stop hearing the cds, then you too can be double light and might farishta who will reveal Ramshivbaba in future. There is no purusharth in just listening and nodding to cds; what will count in the end is your own effort of churning of Murlis( which will be your source of income for your next 84 births).
shivsena.
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andrey

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Re: ShivBaba and Prajapita

Post24 Mar 2008

But then why in the Avyakt Vanis it is said tht it is good time that we have come into that we don't have to churn. Butter is already churned and we just have to eat. Who has churned this butter that we have to eat? Is this you?

shivsena

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Re: ShivBaba and Prajapita

Post26 Mar 2008

andrey wrote:But then why in the Avyakt Vanis it is said tht it is good time that we have come into that we don't have to churn. Butter is already churned and we just have to eat. Who has churned this butter that we have to eat? Is this you?

Dear andrey Bhai.

If the butter (nectar of knowledge) was really given by ShivBaba, then i would have eaten it wholeheartedly; but i have observed that in the last 15 years of my existence in Advanced Knowledge, this poisoned butter (churned by Krishna) is not giving the PBKs health, wealth and happiness which the nectar of knowledge ought to give to the souls who drink it; Also the nectar of knowledge given by ShivBaba should grant the boon of immortality (amar bhav ka vardhan) to those who drink it, but i see that young and old PBKs are leaving their bodies like in mrityulok.

So, if you want to keep eating this poisoned butter (of Krishna), then you can have it all by yourself (along with my share). I have been eating this butter since 1993 and now i am no longer interested in eating this poisoned butter which says that Ram is prajapita and Ram is Bharat and Ram is Ravan (completely contrary to what Murlis says that Ram is Bhagwan, Ram is Ishwar, Ram is ShivBaba) and so from 2005 onwards i am churning my own butter and sharing it with like-minded souls but it seems there are few takers, which again is not going to stop me from churning and sharing my views on this forum.

Sooner or later you will realise the truth in my above statement. Till then Happy eating.

shivsena.
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andrey

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Re: ShivBaba and Prajapita

Post27 Mar 2008

It entirely depends on us. It is said that the saagar (ocean) is both sweet and salty. We can churn and emerge jewels or mud.

You have said that ShivBaba, but you should say whom do you understand to be ShivBaba - the soul of Shiv or the soul of Ram, because does the soul of Shiv churns and delivers butter. It is we human beings that churn The Knowledge delivered by him to deliver butter. If it is the soul of Ram that is churning then if he says Ram becomes Ravan he is saying it for his own self. There cannot be complaint for he should know himself better. If he becomes Ravan he also does not become this permanently, he also becomes Ishwar for some period of time, because for to rise to the highest one has to first fall to the lowest.

If it is the soul of Krishna who is churning the butter he could have churned it in the past when he used to be in his body, whilst The Knowledge was delivered through him. According to the advanced knowledge it is said that he possesses a child intellect, that is not capable of deep churning and through him knowledge was only narrated, even Mama used to churn more than him so the probability that he is the one who churns and delivers the butter is very less. He does not reach to make the full effort of changing himeself from Nar to Narayan, means he does not become fully knowledgeful and he takes birth in Satyug as buddhu (fool). If Krishna did churn the butter he would narrate Advanced Knowledge through Gulzar Dadi too.

And if it is the soul of Shiv who is delivering the advanced knowledge and if he says that Ram is Ravan then it becomes a funny situation that the soul of Ram is not crying when being termed as Ravan, but you cry for him. Baba (in Virendra Dev Dixit) also gives the example that many mothers on listening to the Ramayana cry for Rama, that he has to suffer etc., but if Rama himself is not crying when he has to suffer, then why do you cry.

And if it is the soul of Shiv only who is considered as Ram and termed Ravan – that he plays the part of Ravan – then you should also not worry, for he sufferes the most defamation.

But you also seem to not believe the Avyakt Vanis. If it is said butter is churned and we have to eat, it must be so. The question remains who churned it.

If you could give me your share then you become a giver, but we know giver is only ShivBaba. We are all takers, but we don't take from others, we take from one and give to everyone. So this share that you speak about if this is taken from ShivBaba, means if you narrate knowledge that is given by him then one can eat this. Poison will be said an interference. If you believe your own churning will not poison The Knowledge then it means you are poisonless.

The point was different. That you now play the role of giver of knowledge (different to the advance knwoeldge) and enlightening the PBKs, but the role of giving knowledge and enlightening is played only by the Supreme Soul and not by any other soul. Only the one Supreme Soul teaches knowledge and everyone else teaches ignorance and darkness. It either means you are the Supreme Soul and we should listen to you or that whatever you share is only ignorance and darkness.

It is you only who defames saying that The Knowledge given through Virendra Dev Dixit is poison. Whether you defame Krishna, Rama or Shiv.
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ex-l

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Re: ShivBaba and Prajapita

Post27 Mar 2008

I follow this debate because at its heart, there is the exact same quandary the BKWSU suffers from. The faith that all of Lekhraj Kirpalani's written down words were at all times Shrimat/God inspired/God speaking through him ... AND applicable to all times after.

Of course, to my mind that is nuts. It cannot be so.

I feel that the PBKs are handicapped by having to accept this surely because of the politics between the PBKs and the BKs. If Virendra Dev Dixit or PBKs starts to say, well sometimes he was right and sometimes he was wrong, then their heresy increases to the points it would put off potential followers - and, of course, be distorted by the BKWSU.

I think Virendra Dev Dixit has done/is doing a better job that most and trying to make sense of the disparate Murlis ... but when are we ever going to grow out of the child-like - and very bhaktish - addiction to "the Word of God".

As I read it, shivsena does not say "every word from Virendra Dev Dixit is poison". He is trying to account for the anomalies (the errors, the wrong things, the contradictions) with a plausible theory within the context. He is saying that at different times, Virendra Dev Dixit is under different psychic influences. Potentially, I think that it highly likely. However one understands "psychic influences". I think that the psychic (e.g. either spookery or group-psychological) influences surrounding and influencing the BK religion are like the weather, i.e. sometimes calm, clear and sunny, sometimes blowing a cyclone storm where the sun is obscured.

I think being strong enough to recognise and admit all the anomalies and evidence to the contrary, and attempting to resolve and explain them is braver than just coming up very bhaktish non-answers such, "Baba is testing us" etc. It does not mean I agree with him. It does not mean I support him. It just means that I am trying to understand him in a non-confrontational, non-binary fashion (e.g. right/wrong, good/bad, nectar/poison). The truth is, we don't know, we all are guessing and it is just a lottery of faith until whatever end comes.

What would happen if Virendra Dev Dixit died?

shivsena

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Re: ShivBaba and Prajapita

Post27 Mar 2008

andrey wrote: It is you only who defames saying that The Knowledge given through Veerendra Dev Dixit is poison. Whether you defame Krishna, Rama or Shiv.

Dear andrey Bhai.
The show is still not over; wait till the end and time will show who is defaming the Father.

First we have to know which Father can be defamed??? Can bindishiv be defamed in any manner? Can Krishna be defamed in any manner? Both bindishiv and Krishna are known to BKs and PBKs, so there is no question of defaming them. It is Ram's soul who is being defamed by the PBKs by calling Him Ravan(no. 1 patit kami kanta) and prajapita and Bharat etc etc. I have always elevated Ram's soul to the level of shivbindi (Ram=Shiv) in 100% nirakari stage. So there is no question of me defaming anybody. If at all anybody is defaming the Father Ram, it is definitely the PBKs by giving him the titles of Ravan, etc.

I am on this forum to share my experiences as a BK and PBK. It is said that ''A smart man learns from his own mistakes'', while 'A wise man learns from the mistakes of others". I was smart to learn from my mistakes as a BK for 9 years, that basic knowledge is not complete knowledge and so i was attracted to Advanced Knowledge. Now as a PBK for 15 years, i have learnt that even Advanced Knowledge is incomplete knowledge(given by Krishna) and from my study of Murlis i know that the final true Gita knowledge will be given only when Ram reaches his nirakari stage; and so i wish to share this research with fellow PBKs so that they can learn from my mistakes and not be trapped in another bhakti-marg ritual.

Murli says ''Bhakti marg is waste of time, waste of money, waste of energy"; Shiva is hinting about this behad ki Bhakti which the PBKs are doing since the shooting period of Copper and iron age (from 1988-89) ; i have wasted precious time(neglecting my family and profession) and i wish that my Brother PBKs be forewarned about this behad ka bhakti-marg, which is nothing but durgati-marg and the earlier this fact is known to PBKs, the better off they will be in future.

That is all i have to say.
shivsena.

suryavanshi

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Re: ShivBaba and Prajapita

Post27 Mar 2008

The secret meaning of the Murlis of Shiv Baap can be explained only by the author Himself (Shiv Baap). Any attempt by any other human soul to explain the deep meanings of Gyan Murlis is just another way of interpreting the truth. It is just a "false" perception that this is the truth but, in fact, truth was always one and will always remain one.

Even in Bhakti marg, we see that it is a common thing to interpret the scripture "Bhagwat Gita" in many different ways. There are more than 108 ways of interpreting this most accepted scripture and this is also true in our Gyan. Different souls (vidharmi and swadharmi) see The Knowledge differently. But we know that interpretation or clarification from one only is the truth and others are then numberwise near the truth.

The more than 108 ways of interpreting "Gita" has not done any good to this world but has only degraded this wonderful scripture which was created by God himself. In Bhakti marg, all these matters are in limited sense but in Gyan marg we know that these matters are in a unlimited sense.
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