Accurate Yaad (Accurate Remembrance)

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arjun

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Re: Accurate Yaad (Accurate Remembrance)

Post24 Jul 2008

mbbhat wrote:I am not against PBKs’ method of remembering Shiva in VD’s body. Even many BKs today remember Shiva in Brahma’s body. BUT WHEN PBKs SAY THEIR METHOD ONLY IS CORRECT (making compulsory to remember body also with the soul), I do not agree with it. This is why I had asked them how much control you (PBKs) have over your organs. Ultimately, that alone can explain what true Yaad is. Otherwise these discussions will be very lengthy and never end.

We are not telling that only our method is correct. We are just pointing out what the Murlis say.

People have been remembering/worshipping God in various forms including stones, trees, etc. Even through that method they got the fruits for their efforts. People of other religions believe God to be incorporeal and remember Him in that form. They too experience God's love in some form or the other. So, if you wish to continue remembering Him in incorporeal form you can very well continue to do so.

As regards dharnaa, it has been said several times on this forum that there are good and bad people in all the organizations/religions, whether it is BKs/PBKs or other religions. ShivBaba (through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit) has clearly said umpteen number of times that BKs are better in dharna and seva while PBKs are better in knowledge and remembrance. In the end each group will become complete by imbibing the good qualities of the other group. The PBKs may be however much bad in the eyes of BKs, but you should appreciate that they have not hidden their knowledge or Godly versions nor edited/cut Murlis and have produced them as it is (audio, video and typed form) on their website for the entire world to see.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

mbbhat

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Re: Accurate Yaad (Accurate Remembrance)

Post24 Jul 2008

arjun wrote:[ 1) No phone call is more important than meeting BapDada. 2) As regards secrecy, when so much security arrangement is made to prevent any PBK from entering the Madhuban complex, then why do they fear about Godly versions leaking out? Anyways, the Avyakt Vani gets leaked out to everyone in the world through individuals or through this forum. So, why fear? 3)It is only the sinners who fear. 4)When BapDada is giving Godly knowledge and when BKs are instrumental in spreading Godly knowledge why should they fear Godly knowledge going out of their complex? Or do they feel The Knowledge is false?

Dear Arjun soul,

1) You may say phone call is not important. But if there is any visitor (agyaanis), or some agyaanis call and there is no answer, what they will think about the institution?

2) It is not a question of fear for me. But since there are varieties of children, some care has to be taken to avoid disturbance during the milan. It is not just about PBKs. If an agyaani comes and sees milan, what will he consider? So to avoid misunderstandings of agyaanis, it is better to do in the evening.

3) I had asked a PBK whether I can attend Virendra Dev Dixit's class when he speaks Murli. But the answer was first write nishchay patra, that too in LEGAL BOND PAPER! Do you permit any BK, or agyaani to attend your Murli classes (Virendra Dev Dixit's) directly?

4) It is better not to disclose the things which others cannot understand. A common man cannot understand Murli directly. Baba has already said, without getting nishchay and observing Maryadas, it is of no use (or one should not be permitted) to sit in the class.

Usually one winds up his work and likes to spend time with a guest. Don’t you think there is at least small disrespect if one (sevadhaaris) is busy in work when Baba speaks. *Also it is difficult to listen to Murlis while doing hard work and when you need to talk with other sevadharis. That too giving drushti is impossible.

Dear Bansy soul,

Can you sit without food for 10 hours during day time? If you can, do you think all can do that? So night time is best as I have explained above.

Is there any problem in doing Milan in night time? It is waste to put thoughts in limited things. Your minds will have always questions and doubts. But it may be beneficial to others. So, you can continue.
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tom

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Re: Accurate Yaad (Accurate Remembrance)

Post24 Jul 2008

bansy wrote:If BKs are happy with this arrangement with their only ONE Father who can come ONLY during this Confluence Age, then let them be. Maybe they just don't love your Father enough for him to stay longer. Maybe He is really elsewhere most of the time and just pops into BKWSU occasionally.

Yes, Bansy, thank you. This is the most important point . A "God" bound to the Drama?!!

According to the "Knowledge" Seniors are teaching that "God" comes only during 100 years to earth occasionally, first to Dada Lekhraj playing cards and climbing rocks with him, then occasionally to Abu Road in Gulzar's body for longer hours while BKs go to sleep, eat, refresh themselves and come back and find God still in Gulzar, who woke up after 10-15 hours or longer? Sessions very fresh without any bodily needs. Then since many years, 12 times a year in the winter season a few hours to Abu Road and says he visits the BKs' houses during Amrit Vela. As Bansy pointed out, God's stay in Gulzar gets shorter with the years. And the Seniors have been afraid for years that God will stop coming soon.

This "God" has no idea what is going on in the world and in the BK world, except the theoretical same stuff He has been repeating since years. He knows about the worldly reality only so much as much the Dadis whisper to him in the ear.

This "God" does not care for the rest of the 7 billions of human beings on earth. And after so much work he gets so tired that he needs a big rest during 4900 years in Paramdham!!!

Oh God, how was i so naiv to believe in such a limited god! :shock:
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arjun

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Re: Accurate Yaad (Accurate Remembrance)

Post24 Jul 2008

mbbhat wrote:1) You may say phone call is not important. But if there is any visitor (agyaanis), or some agyaanis call and there is no answer, what they will think about the institution?

Do you think all Madhuban niwasis sit continuously in front of BapDada from the time of his entry into Gulzar Dadi to the time of his departure (which could vary from 4-12 hours)? Do you think all the rooms, departments are locked and everyone sits continuously in front of BapDada all the time? As far as I know ever since I have been a BK, even when there were very few phone lines at Madhuban, all the Madhuban Niwasis never sat continuously before BapDada all the time. Some even skipped the milan due to their duties in the kitchen or other departments. They used to be provided live audio facility to listen to the Vani.

As far as phone calls are concerned, since BKWSU is a worldwide institution, phone calls can be received at any time of day or night. So, I don't think this can be a reason for BapDada to come in the night. And would BapDada mind if any non-BK call up to know about BK knowledge on phone and if he is attended to by a BK affectionately (even if it means skipping the Vani for a few minutes)? In fact he would be happy that his child is doing Godly service foregoing his personal interests.
2) It is not a question of fear for me. But since there are varieties of children, some care has to be taken to avoid disturbance during the milan. It is not just about PBKs. If an agyaani comes and sees milan, what will he consider? So to avoid misunderstandings of agyaanis, it is better to do in the evening.

There have been hundreds of cases of non-BKs (VIPs and ordinary people) witnessing Avyakt BapDada's classes. I have not visited Mount Abu after BapDada's meetings shifted to Abu Road, but until it used to take place at Om Shanti Bhawan in Mount Abu, there used to be a lot of visitors during Avyakt BapDada milan because it used to start very early at about 5.30 P.M. They used to be allowed to witness from behind the last rows of the Hall. Even some of my aged relatives(non-BKs) have witnessed Avyakt BapDada's programme for a few minutes when they visited Mount Abu.
3) I had asked a PBK whether I can attend Veerendra Dev Dixit's class when he speaks Murli. But the answer was first write nishchay patra, that too in LEGAL BOND PAPER! Do you permit any BK, or agyaani to attend your Murli classes (Veerendra Dev Dixit's) directly?

I did not say that non-BKs should be permitted to sit in the gathering in front of Avyakt BapDada. I know there are many Murli points which say that Baba meets only his children. It is based on those Murli points only that non-PBKs are not allowed to meet Baba Virendra Dev Dixit during the Murli classes. But many non-BKs meet him when he is travelling all over India throughout the year and at Gitapathshalas, where some non-BKs turn up suddenly.
I had commented only on your statement that maintenance of secrecy is one of the reasons for Avyakt BapDada's milan in the night.
Usually one winds up his work and likes to spend time with a guest. Don’t you think there is at least small disrespect if one (sevadhaaris) is busy in work when Baba speaks. *Also it is difficult to listen to Murlis while doing hard work and when you need to talk with other sevadharis. That too giving drushti is impossible.

I agree with you that it is disrespectful to walk out of Avyakt BapDada's class. Even ShivBaba (through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit) says that one should not do any other work while listening to Murli. But there are some unavoidable reasons for which one has to miss sitting in front of Baba/BapDada.

I have observed in some Discussion CDs (of PBKs) where some or the other PBK would seek Baba's permission to leave the class to go to his office and Baba would readily permit him. In fact many a times when the Murli classes plus discussion classes are held in the morning hours Baba himself asks the PBKs whether they don't want to leave (to attend to their household/office work). Normally he sticks to a strict time schedule of one hour for Murli class and one hour for discussion class. Even if he forgets to stick to the time schedule he is reminded by the person videographing the class with the help of a placard that the time is over. All this is done to maintain punctuality (to catch the next bus/train/flight) and to avoid the PBKs becoming late for their household/office work.
Is there any problem in doing Milan in night time? It is waste to put thoughts in limited things. Your minds will have always questions and doubts.

Many souls on this forum could ask a similar question. Is there any problem in doing Milan in the morning time? Especially when Baba wants us children to remember him and attend classes in the mornings. He has praised the morning time in numerous Murlis.

bansy

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Re: Accurate Yaad (Accurate Remembrance)

Post24 Jul 2008

mbbhat wrote:Can you sit without food for 10 hours during day time?

Yes. So what's the problem ? But that is no feat compared to plenty of people in the world who can do better by fasting.
But you don't have to worry about even 10 hours nowadys, BapDada only comes for a few hours. He has made it easy for you so you can sit without food for 3-4 hours. It's all the time he can afford.
So night time is best as I have explained above

Yes you're right it is the best for you because that seems to be the God that you like is the one that comes at night.

I simply prefer it when the Sun comes out. Even though sometimes cockroaches also come out in the day, but there are more in the night. Also one usually associates ghosts and dracula with night. Also thieves and moles.

But if anyone wants to see their God at night, that is fine.
arjun wrote:He has praised the morning time in numerous Murlis.

Yes, I prefer to say Good Day to my Father (GOD Day), not Good Night (GOD Night) to Him. But God does even better, He says Good Morning to the children in the Murlis.

In addition, in the Murlis, often starts as "Today ..." , does it ever start "Tonight ..." ?
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paulkershaw

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Re: Accurate Yaad (Accurate Remembrance)

Post25 Jul 2008

IMO, BapDada only arrives at night so that everyone can have a late night and won't be able to get up for a/v and would then feel guilty about it. :| Good yukti eh?
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ex-l

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Re: Accurate Yaad (Accurate Remembrance)

Post25 Jul 2008

Vampires and the undead have always preferred the night ... its memorialized in Bhakti.
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paulkershaw

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Re: Accurate Yaad (Accurate Remembrance)

Post25 Jul 2008

And Zombies too. Now we have the all-new BKWSZU party being formed who will accurately remember their lives, but only during their waking hours. Walking meditation anyone? Its a grave situation.
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arjun

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Re: Accurate Yaad (Accurate Remembrance)

Post26 Jul 2008

Sister bansy wrote:Yes, I prefer to say Good Day to my Father (GOD Day), not Good Night (GOD Night) to Him. But God does even better, He says Good Morning to the children in the Murlis. In addition, in the Murlis, often starts as "Today ..." , does it ever start "Tonight ..." ?

Quoted from the BK Section:
244.
“One should have a lot of love for such Father, who makes us the master of the world and purifies the sinful ones. As soon one wakes up in the morning, one should first of all say good morning to ShivBaba. The more you remember lovingly, the more you would feel happy. Children should ask themselves in their hearts as to what extent they remember the unlimited Father after waking up in the morning. People do Bhakti also in the morning time, don’t they? They do Bhakti with so much love. But Baba knows that many children do not remember (the Father) from their heart and soul, with love and affection. If they say good morning to Baba after waking up in the morning, if they keep thinking about The Knowledge then the mercury of joy would rise. If they do not say good morning to the Father then how will they be relieved of the burden of sins? The main thing is remembrance. This enables you to earn a lot of income for your future. This income would prove useful in every Kalpa.” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 29.02.08, pg.1 published by BKs in Hindi, narrated by ShivBaba through Brahma Baba; translated by a PBK; the words within brackets in the English version have been added by the translator to clarify the meaning)

bansy

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Re: Accurate Yaad (Accurate Remembrance)

Post26 Jul 2008

Yes thanks for the Murli point arjunbhai. When Father comes in the morning, you say good morning. As lokik life, my own children say good morning, and they say good morning to their neighbours and to their schoolteacher, whilst adults say good morning to their colleagues at arrival to the workplace (assume most people work during 9-6pm say). But what should be the greeting to BapDada arrival at 6pm ?

Even in Christian Bhakti, there is a hymn called "Morning has broken, like the first morning, blackbird has spoken" etc (I cannot recall the words) indicating the start of the day with God.

(PS : the greeting "Om Shanti" is often the only greeting used. I think this was discussed elsewhere in the forum, such as why does God need to say "Om Shanti" when we know He is a soul. Does He say it to keep reminding us that we impure-but want-to-become-pure souls do the same, and so it just drill exercise ?)

mbbhat

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Re: Accurate Yaad (Accurate Remembrance)

Post26 Jul 2008

bansy wrote:If BKs are happy with this arrangement with their only ONE Father who can come ONLY during this Confluence Age, then let them be. Maybe they just don't love your Father enough for him to stay longer. Maybe He is really elsewhere most of the time and just pops into BKWSU occasionally.
tom wrote:Yes, Bansy, thank you. This is the most important point . A "God" bound to the Drama?!! God's stay in Gulzar gets shorter with the years. And the Seniors have been afraid for years that God will stop coming soon. This "God" does not care for the rest of the 7 billions of human beings on earth. And after so much work he gets so tired that he needs a big rest during 4900 years in Paramdham!!!

Dear Souls,

A President is bound by the constitution. Similarly God is bound by drama.

If you recharge your cell phone battery for two hours, it will run for 2 to 3 days. If the battery needs contact of power supply always, then it indicates that that battery and power supply are WEAK. Efficient peoples’ work is efficient. Christ had come long back and is not here at present. Still Christianity is powerful. Similarly, God needs to work just for 100 years.

A President does not visit every individual citizen’s home. The other government servants or representatives take care the needs of the people. Similarly, God fulfils the needs and desires of 600 crore people through BKs. That is why BKs are giving Knowledge to the whole world.

In Sakar, Baba used to take Murli class daily. Avyakt Murlis are just 10 to 15 days in a year. Even the duration is decreasing. This is natural. Vast knowledge needed to become pure and for positive thinking are already spoken.

Senior Sisters or Brothers may be worrying about Gulzar Dadi’s health. That is their part. Those who are weak, should fail like it has happened in beggary part (just 60 out of 400 survived). So who ever depends on corporeal things and weak in Yoga will get doubt and leave Yagya. Then Yagya may come into powerful hands! OR if by that time Godly message gets already spread to all the corners of the world, then there is no need of yayga (physical infrastructure) at all.

Real Power or Independence means no dependence on corporeal things or mediator. A teacher is always needed with a child. As it grows, need of teacher becomes less and less. So there is no wonder if the duration of Avyakt milan becomes less.

So, what is happening is normal phenomena.

bansy

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Re: Accurate Yaad (Accurate Remembrance)

Post26 Jul 2008

mbbhat wrote:Real Power or Independence means no dependence on corporeal things or mediator. A teacher is always needed with a child. As it grows, need of teacher becomes less and less. So there is no wonder if the duration of Avyakt milan becomes less.

The point is that 100 years out of 5000 is only a mere 2 percent. The difference between Christianity is that with Raja Yoga God is here to renew the world for 5000 years, whereas Christianity is only a mere 2500 years as according to Gyan. Even with this 2%, the resultant Hinduism is a mess as we see it today. If Christianity is to run for 5000 years it may or may not be in such a mess but such a question is not needed as it does not exist in Gyan.

I would like to use a full 2 percent of my life (of 84 births) and I would hope God can afford 2 percent of The Cycle too, to be with me. I am and will always be a child of God until I don't need Him which is in the next birth. I will not need Him less and less because it means I love him less and less and will study less and less. God is not just a teacher, but also Father, Mother, Friend, Beloved, etc. If your Beloved is not with you 100% of the time during even this mere 2% of The Cycle, is He having an affair with someone else or are you having an affair with someone else such as Maya or Ravan ?

It is said many times in the Murlis that no-one is pure at present, so if God is not around that means there is no chance for any soul to become pure :shock: God has come to do his task, are we expected to do the task. Have you not also heard that Ravan and Maya is also becoming more powerful ?

If God needs to makes excuses such as "bound by drama" then I suppose all his BK children can continue to make the same careless mistakes and then accord it to "bound by drama".

Real power cannot exist when Maya or Ravan exists. That is temporary power.
mbbhat wrote:So, what is happening is normal phenomena.

Is this study a normal study, an ordinary study ? Or is it an elevated one ? I agree, what we see happening in the BKWSU is normal.
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ex-l

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Re: Accurate Yaad (Accurate Remembrance)

Post26 Jul 2008

mbbhat wrote:Christ had come long back and is not here at present.

Actually, The Knowledge states that both the Jesus and the Christ soul IS present here today and sustaining their religion and will lead "their" souls. To be honest, I often notice so many such errors in your posts, or general constructions based on fallacious, but I can be bothered picking you up on them.

If you make a conceptual equation; a + b + c - d = xyz ... all the parts have to add up. if there is an error at the beginning of the equation, you can through the rest away.

I find there is a tendency within the BKs (and other such religions) to make these equations, all leading to the same bottomline, which might work when spoken like salesman's patter, but not when written because one can sit and analyse each part. Generally, I am sorry to say, that is all it is ... salesman's patter selling the housewives another product.

See my, and shivsensa's, recent questions to sachkand elsewhere about the mysterious introduction of Shiva post-1950. There was no mention before hand ... this point alone sinks the credibility of the leadership and their revised Murlis.

mbbhat

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Re: Accurate Yaad (Accurate Remembrance)

Post27 Jul 2008

bansy wrote:[I would like to use a full 2 percent of my life (of 84 births) and I would hope God can afford 2 percent of The Cycle too, to be with me. I am and will always be a child of God until I don't need Him which is in the next birth. I will not need Him less and less because it means I love him less and less and will study less and less. God is not just a teacher, but also Father, Mother, Friend, Beloved, etc. If your Beloved is not with you 100% of the time during even this mere 2% of The Cycle, is He having an affair with someone else or are you having an affair with someone else such as Maya or Ravan ? 2) It is said many times in the Murlis that no-one is pure at present, so if God is not around that means there is no chance for any soul to become pure :shock: .

Dear bansy soul,

If you love God so much, then why cannot you pray God with full pure, innocent heart? In love there is no fear, doubt, accusing.

God is DETACHED in drama. Baba sometimes says I give you happiness, sometimes says, 'I do not give you happiness. I just show you the path to happiness'. Please understand that to the extent you love God, you recieve property from God. *Most important thing is God is above birth and death and we all come in birth and deaths. So, there is the huge difference here.

You may wish to be with God always. Then please show it in actions. You should be ready to sacrifice vices. Love to God means ability to forget body, because God is bodyless. Can you forget Body continuously for at least 5 minutes (not in sleep).

God gives such a property that there is no need of him for the next 5000 (at least 2500 ) years. If God remains always with us, then Drama will not run. If God remains with us always, then Baba cannot make us Kings(independent). Baba teaches Raja Yoga. This is why I had said initially without knowing knowledge of Drama one cannot understand God fully. But Baba says remember me always. But why don't we remember him ALWAYS (that too when you say you need god 100%). Please try to love God in all relations at least for the present birth.

*2) Do not take literal meaning. Take positively. I become very happy to hear this. I get confidence that there is still chance to become in rosary (within 108). Why do you think of other souls. *Another thing is this was said before 1969. *Baba has announced just two numbers, Mama and Baba. If all the other numbers are anounced, then new comers will feel disinterest in study. Just keep yourself in Baba's place and think what would you do when you are given to serve 7 billion souls, and bound by drama. *When some disaster occurs, Prime Ministers do their best. They cannot save each end every one. Similarly, Baba cannot change all human beings into deities. But if one wishes to sacrifice vices, definitely the gate is always OPEN.

DEAR Ex- l soul,

Hindu religion is mess. I had already explained it. Because it is the oldest religion. But the beauty is it can mix with any religion. Can Christians mix with Muslims or Muslims with Christians? Christ has said, "Love your neighbour also like you love yourself". But which Christian follows this? If this is discussed, it will again become a lengthy one.

Of course, there will be some errors in my posts. My English is not very good. So I cannot put what is in my mind exactly into words. *Sometimes, it is not possible to give answer shortly. So, I will have to reduce or cut some matters. Sometimes I give many examples to explain so that the reader can be satisfied by one or the other. You can select the one which is suitable. In this, just the example of battery was enough.

There is no need of example of Christ. Even while writing I was conscious about that (according to knowledge, Christ remains till end). But many agyaanis will be visiting the forum. So, for them it could be helpful. Also sometimes I do not (cannot) reply because of time constraint and some things are waste here. If one is really positive minded, he can be benefit himself by other points.

bansy

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Re: Accurate Yaad (Accurate Remembrance)

Post27 Jul 2008

If you love God so much, then why cannot you pray God with full pure, innocent heart?

mbbhat,

Is this a question you should ask yourself ?

Maybe you simply do not realise that there are many people who are really simply happy with their lives and also with God. And not to any of the "definitions" you lecture on about about God. You are happy with being a "BK" but not attending the BK centre but having Murlis, you are happy with the presence of BapDada for only a few times a year and a few hours in the evening during those few days. Yet you are not a BK.

There is nothing wrong with that. I wish you well in your own path.
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