Is there spirituality in BK?

The question was is all the money and property grabbing "spiritual"? Is it "spiritual" money and property grabbing?

It's not "illegal" to ask to donations ... but it is fraudulent, criminal, to exert "undue influence". It's also against Shrimat "to beg" (ask for donations) and to take donations from non-BKs. Or at least was.

Using false predictions of the End of the World, or promises of Golden Palaces in Heaven exchange for bricks and mortar today, to vulnerable superstitious and probably uneducated individuals would be "undue influence".

I am sorry littleo but the impression I get from you is that you come from a culture or country which is very corrupt, and accepts such corruption as normal. Honestly, it's not. It may be as bad as India

Please don't export those value, or import them into Knowledge. And please don't try and excuse the BKs with false arguments.

I presume you therefore agree with the Brahma Kumaris' money and property grabbing and believe that by splitting up the husband and wife, and the husband being forced to hand over the family property, that the husband will "gain benefit"? Is that your position?

Do you have any compassion for these husbands and non-BK families at all, or do you agree with the BK robbery?

My opinion doesn't matter. They will be judged in the court, not against Shrimat. If you are against this you have to ask for change in the laws. If psychological manipulation is proved, i believe one can be sentenced for this.

It needs investigating how far a family is broken only and entirely due to some influence of the BKs, or whether the family has not been broken already and the BK has been just the final drop.

In many stories you will find that the family who are victim have been content with the person. They will say, our daughter was very good, doing well at school etc...then she entered the BK and everything failed. We hear only one side of the story and we don't know how far the family has been good on the other side. You know of many cases when they escape arranged marriages, violence etc. Is this good or bad in your book, to escape this?

What i say is that if you rush to judgment, just because the BKs are always bad and the family is always good, you miss details that through investigation can change the balance. I believe every case should be taken separately and investigated thoroughly and not readily put in the list, so that we collect similar cases for more force in the argument.

With regards to money and property donation, i believe in most cases people would donate voluntary, rather than after being asked to donate. I consider this as their right to do so. If the same person later wishes his property back, claiming psychological manipulation, it is different matter, but if the family does not have authority over the property and it is personal, they cannot claim. One can do as he pleases with his own money and property. If he wishes to donate it to BK i see no problem with it. It is none of my business what people do with their own money.

You can say it is morally degraded that one donates his property to the BK who are already rich and deprives his family from shelter. I don't think this is a noble act, but still these are internal family matters i cannot take part in. You may think that by voicing such cases and giving judgment you will change the outcome of such situation, but this interference can be also form of manipulation. If i were to give my own property to the BK and you would tell me not to do so, because they are rich and corrupt, they are misusing me, i would feel offended, because if I am to do something it is expected i do it with full consciousness about the results. I would see your interference as useless moralizing and going into matters that are not of your jurisdiction.

I think the initial prediction that people are in danger, they are innocent, ignorant or even fools is not fair and is only excuse for patronising. We have to look at people as integrated and mature beings and respect their wishes and acts as manifestation of their freedom of own will.

My opinion doesn't matter.

Don't you mean, "I refuse to answer" ?

They will be judged in the court, not against Shrimat. If you are against this you have to ask for change in the laws. If psychological manipulation is proved, i believe one can be sentenced for this.

Therefore you place the burden on the non-BKs to hire an expensive lawyer, take their family member to court (which is hardly going to improve relationships), and gamble on the judge's opinion?

I can think of one case, in Russian, where the BKs fought back to keep a property ... but another case, that of leader Sister Jayanti Kripalani in London, in which when her Father wanted a property back from the BKWSU, she immediately threw the BK occupiers out and gave it back to him.

Generally, however, the BKs are exploiting non-BKs tendency not to want to gamble and sue a family member.

And bear in mind the Shrimat in the Murlis was that the BKs should not own property.

What i say is that if you rush to judgment, just because the BKs are always bad and the family is always good

Yes, because the BKs are doing it knowingly for false purposes, manipulatively, and exploiting brainwashed adherents.

It's called Undue Influence.

I believe in most cases people would donate voluntary, rather than after being asked to donate.

What does voluntarily mean? They are brainwashed to believe nonsense about the End of the World and earning golden palaces in Heaven. Even as a PBK, you don't believe the golden palaces fairy story. Human's "have a right" to be deluded and exploited?

If the same person later wishes his property back, claiming psychological manipulation, it is different matter ... One can do as he pleases with his own money and property.

Firstly, as I wrote above, the BKs have fought back using Kali Yugi "rights". I agree that one solution would be in the BKs refused to accept such gifts and only accepted them as loans. They don't need freeholds because they say the world is going to end.

Secondly, the problem we see time and time again, is that they are splitting up families, husband and wives, and then encouraging wives to use divorce laws so they can then grab the properties.

I am sorry but for me a marriage is a marriage. You enter into a contract. If you want to leave, then you should leave behind everything (accepted not in cases of real abuse).

But what we have going in are the BK causing splits and then financially profiting from them.

Of course as people become older they become less attractive and need more attention etc, that is the way of life. I can see why women would might want to chuck out their old men, after their husbands or fathers have worked all their lives to provide a property for them, but I can not respect it.

It would seem to me that they are just looking for an easy path in life and there is nothing spiritual about it. I've even heard reports of non-BK men committing suicide afterwards.

Bottomline, the Brahma Kumaris are gold diggers who seduce and flatter naive individuals in a subtle way, with the intention of grabbing their wealth afterwards. Recently, they have even started seducing and flattering government officials, and exploiting Kali Yugi benefits, to reap government lands and money.

Is there spirituality in the BKWSU? Even "spirituality" requires money to run, so the money comes first.

Don't you mean, "I refuse to answer" ?

I mean my opinion does not make any difference.

Therefore you place the burden on the non-BKs to hire an expensive lawyer, take their family member to court (which is hardly going to improve relationships), and gamble on the judge's opinion?

You say that they are forced to do so...yes i can see your point. I was coming from a point that they have started the case. Of course, i don't approve of family members going to court.

Human's "have a right" to be deluded and exploited?

Of course they do. It is not forbidden that one is a criminals, but as with the right one also has to bear the consequences. I don't disaprove of the effort to help someone out of his illusion. Great if you can chieve success, but often people learn through their own experience, so if you don't manage to save them in advance they have to face the consequencess of their actions so that to learn. Sometimes this is even required. You may know the story about the butterfly fighting to go out of the cocoon. Someone was looking at its fight and helped it out, but whe was not able to develop her wings and never was able to fly. Sometimes we just have to leave people walk their own path with faith in their own internal power to cope withe every sitiation. Even if we can advice them we do the non-bidningly, they are like our equals, they can accept or not aaccept it depends on them. We don't order them, we are not their patron.

Regarding the world and if should we desire its destruction, If there is a 95 years old person, it is clear he is about to die. There is no way that his death is prevented. But does it mean that there is no use in taking care for his health, to make his life easier and relieve his pains? Of course there is sense in this, but then it comes a moment when the person just passes away and you cannot bring it back, when you better help him leave, rather than stay. With this i don't like to imply that the world is like 95 years old. It can be new for some.

Even "spirituality" requires money to run, so the money comes first.

I don't agree. I think spirituality does not need a single penny to run. Yes, we need to eat and stay somewhere, but we can do that with our own money. We earn our living in the world.

If one relies on spirituality to make a living, he has to accepting donations. Historically Brahmins have been taken care for by the government, but they require very little for to be sustained, they don't eat much, they don't dress fancy and would live in simple conditions. Every extra expense is not needed.

In the BK case i think one can live a normal life and study and do service in his spare time in a non-formal way, like speaking to people, that does not require any money.

In the BK case I think one can live a normal life and study and do service in his spare time in a non-formal way, like speaking to people, that does not require any money.

Fine. Great. Please go now and stop the BKs from doing any more than that. And, as you know, the Murlis say they should not buy property and so remind them of that too.

Actually, I think this is largely where the problem started, as soon as they started running centers to make money, and upkeeping employees, they needed more and more money.

But before one single BK steps outside of their own home to speak to anyone else,

first, they have to pull up their god spirit and make them explain what is going on, why they mislead them in the past, make an honest account of the past and get firm assurances from them about the future (or in your case stop claiming their BapDada is god) ... then
secondly, they have to scrub clean and remove all of their false pollution from this world.

Your work is with the BKs, not us.

Cleaning them and the PBKs up, pulling down their false leadership, and "spiritualising" them ... not getting in our way.

I'll help you set up a system where you can deliver complete Murlis to BK followers if you can show me you have collected them all to do so, but that is all. The AIVV have a very complete and original collection, why cant you get a copy from them and work with other PBKs typing them out and translating them?

Even "spirituality" requires money to run,

No, spirituality does not require money but it comes when you stay away from it (Maya se door rahna chahiye means stay away from Maya).

Did Lord Jesus, Guru Nanak (Sikh Guru), Lord Buddha, and all others acquired properties. They also had rich followers who wanted to donate them gifts, gold and palaces but they never accepted.

Historically Brahmins have been taken care for by the government, but they require very little for to be sustained, they don't eat much, they don't dress fancy and would live in simple conditions

In old days some Brahmin saints did not accept Kings' favors (they thought that Kings' money can corrupt their mind as it was not hard earned or SATVIK), instead they used to ask for food (BHIKSHA) from house to house daily. They never over collected to save it for tommorow, they only asked for today's bread.

Is there spirituality in the BKWSU?

The question itself has the answer !!

Spirituality can not be BRANDED or REGISTERED.

What brand did Lord Jesus used while preaching his be lovers ? CwSU (Christ World spiritual university)?
What brand did Guru Nanak or Lord Buddha used ?
Where did they registered their brand?
Did they specify some dress code or uniform for their followers ?

Branding and Registrations have nothing to do with spirituality they are tools of marketing and collecting money. The BKWSU needs more and more money, they have unlimited GREED and they are using Hindu Religious Gods for their purpose.

For last 75 years they are cursing Kaliyug, crying and crying, gathering emotional victims and emptying their mind and money.

ex-l,

I think you are preoccupied with thinking about what I can, what I should do, this is something I have to decide on my own. Please, leave me my own freedom to act and speak as I consider right, according to my own understanding. It is in your interest to hear a different opinion.

I have proposed for sending the Murlis, because people had made that requested to you, so it is your moral duty to do so, now that Murlis are available. Why do you make it into some business with me, where you set conditions?

I have the copy of the BK Murlis that are there with the PBKs. There you can see how the Murlis are edited, because there are copies of the same Murli over the years, you see which parts have been cut. These are two books, published by PBK, everyone can obtain them. One costs 40 rps, other 55 rps (0,46 and 0,63 pounds). The print is not often good, I don't know if it will be good if it is scanned, but I think it is a good idea. Regarding translation, the issue is time.

For last 75 years they are cursing Kaliyug, crying and crying, gathering emotional victims and emptying their mind and money.

True, true ... they curse and curse every one and every thing but are very happy to accept its money, property and land.

It's 99% just a strategy to being financially supported without working and running their own business.

It is in your interest to hear a different opinion.

As you said yourself just a few hours ago, "your opinion does not make any difference". It's not worth anything. Largely, I find the level of your arguments "unspiritual". They excuse corruption, lack strong ethics and you are not straightforward.

(* Note to others, littleo has had different accounts in the past on this and other BK/PBK forums).

It's in my interest not to have my time wasted, and it's in the interest of this forum not to have the hard facts and truth buried under apologetic excuses that avoid the problems. It's in the interest of BKs to receive a direct supply of unedited Murlis.

Why do you make it into some business with me, where you set conditions?

Firstly, because when I do something, I like to do it at the level of at least good quality; and I know how mailing list and email technology works, and so I know what is technically required.

Technically, what is required are a 'text only' collection of Murlis and, for greatest "spiritual benefit" according to BKism, the most complete and original edit of those Murlis.

Therefore, if you are serious ... and not just wasting my time ... get that collection together and we will make it freely available for no charge distribution. I cannot do anything until you do your work.

Secondly, because as a PBK believer, your participation here is conditional ... "no pay, no play".

If you are not here to leave Gyan, which is one of the purposes of this forum, then you have to establish your value by providing some service. If you are not willing to give, you cannot take.

(* Note, I am not even asking for service to us. I am asking for service to other BK/PBK types).

If you are not willing to give, why should we give to you?

Yes please, littleo, let us have original Murlis (Vanis) here.

What wonderful service to all that would be on this website.

With Adobe Acrobat you can export pdf files to word files, but it does not work with Hindi. Maybe these can be send like pdfs, what do you say ex-l?

I would guess it needs a Hindi person with a Hindi Operating System and applications to do. Are the BKs still locking their documents so they cannot be easily copied and pasted?

'Text only' is the only way to go. Do it well, or not at all.

It makes the smallest file and the quickest download, and they can be uploaded into a searchable database, see the Encyclopedia. It's so convenient, I have no idea why the BKWSU resists doing so. For example, search for the word "donkey" in Murlis and you get, "this" instantly. No more scrubbing about trying to find a quote or advice; no more Murli bores misquoting quotes out of context. Many people access the internet via mobile phone now so you have to keep the files small.

There's about 420 Sakar Murlis and 120 Avyakt Murlis already archived there.

We do keep copies of Murlis in PDFs and other forms in the Library (but again we need to be aware of total file sized) ... but what it really needs is one person, or a small group, to take on the project to get one copy of every Murli and present them in systematical order.

I have not even had time to compare the ones in Encyclopedia with the ones in the Library to see how many we've got or missing.

One of the underlying problems of the way the philosophy is being handled, is that it is a bitty, cut and chopped up, disorganized mess spread over everywhere. A quote here, a quote there, no context; some are docs, some pdfs, some jpgs ... What's wrong with just making things easy for everyone and having all them available for everyone in the simplest of formats?

Why does no believer want to do that as "service"? Surely, by their own philosophy, it would be the highest service, would not it? And we remember how much value the BKs gave them ... used them as scrap paper to wrapped up sweeties in!

If it was me, I'd archive and organize each revision, one on top of the next, so one could study how it had been changed.

Well, that was an interesting topic for a while.

Petered out ...

Distracted by another at a much more visceral level of discussion ... 'Criticisms of Brahma Kumaris Info'.

I am still interested and left feeling that I still have not read a good definition of what is "spiritual" from the BK corner. I guess you could offer an opinion, of both spirituality in the classic use of the word and how you see the BKs defining it to reinvigorate the discussion?

What do the BKs really mean? I remember one of their briefing documents for their campaign at the UN which said that BKs should emphasise the BKWSU as the "source of spirituality".

Doesn't "spiritual" just mean religious without all the hang up and rigidity and rituals of orthodox religions these days? is not BKism quite rigid and ritualistic at its core? Just it has less of them.

ex-l,

Have you been to Mount Abu? What was your experience, meeting Avyakt BapDada?

Yes please, littleo, let us have original Murlis (Vanis) here.

Do you think these are of some use? Murli cuttings.

Yes, I have to edit the image, but I mean the quality. The quality of some is even worse.