ex-l wrote:I have been "churning" on this and I think the strong reaction I have is against circles not cycles.
I think the definition of "perfect cycle" is a closed path (point to point) that is repeated identically in time. Walking in a circle is a cycle, walking in ellipse is a cycle, and walking in a square is a cycle. Assuming you trace exactly the paths, then they become "perfect cycles".
And ex-l is correct, BKs tend to think of a circle. See Jagdish book, Eternal Drama part 2. He did not like the concept of ellipse, i think. Mathematically speaking, an ellipse is convertible to a circle by changing the x,y coordinate system.
A cycle is a mathematical concept. In physical reality, we use this "concept of cycle" to fit the points in the path and come up with a closed loop (whether circle, ellipse, or etc.).For example:
The elliptic revolution of planet earth around the sun, 365.24... days ago to the present, COMPARED to the future elliptic revolution from present to 365.24...th day. If we pulled out those two ellipses, we can say there is some "degree of randomness" and those two ellipses are NOT made up "fine curves" on a plane (mathematically speaking). More like a probability functions like that of an electron orbital.
If the earth axis is going to tilt a little, then that "elliptic revolution path" is screwed-up and the more the path becomes "open" and no closed loop occurs (meaning no cycle). In reality it is not even a "perfect cycle" but we can use the "mathematical concept of cycle" to describe the phenomenon.
To say that the coming of days are cyclic is OK but bear in mind they are not perfect not even a closed loop in space and time.
To say that the coming of years are cyclic is OK but again they are not perfect and may not be closed either.
Now, BKs assert that the "5000 years" stretched is a "perfect cycle", that is, the "loop" is going to close only at the 5000th year AND all the 5000 year loops are identical.
Of course our world is made up of Cycles (we are not so sure about either the cosmos or the quantum).
Perhaps, but reality confirms they are not "perfect cycles" AND MAY NOT BE A CLOSED LOOP in space and time. I believe every "physical cycle" is only an approximation of a true "mathematical cycle". They can even be totally annihilated and re-created like the electron knocked off from an atom by an X-ray, and another electron comes in.
I think the point tinydot is raising is about the seasons constantly changing. I am saying that the sub-atoms are always changing. The quantum is seething and mass appearing inand out of it at random. What evidence is their for perfectly repetitive circles? It would seem the Buddha is more online with his "everything changes forever" maxim.
Only belief for the 5000 year "perfect cycle" (closed loop as well as closed mind). And correct, Buddha's concept seems to me better.
Now if we think of the BK Cycle, why is it represented as a neat and tidy circle rather than, say, a 3 dimensional downard spiral of the Golden Mean? What does the symbolic value of the equal sided circle? I remember Shiva Baba have a ***** that it was not him that put together all of the images, I am not sure if this refered to the major teaching aids or not. I think he was pointing the finger at a Ramesh but need to check the references.
Mathematical simplicity simplifies reality. But it seems to me a highly complex mathematical probability defines the reality.
The other issue you raise of open via closed sytems is a separate issue. Entropy is not a simple, inescapable one way downwards track. The BK "Universe Turns to Light Theory" (or pure energy) theory is the only thing that I could accept as being a possible scenario and we have raised it here before. But is it limited to this particular area of space-time? It is a very far cry from what the BKWSU has been and is still teaching and believes. What are we going to have? All of the universe turned to light EXCEPT for India?!?!
In my opinion, Entropy Increase is a localized phenomenon, not observable and may not occur in the universal cosmic level. I may change this opinion in time. I believe though we can organize our planet (decrease in entropy) by putting our minds and bodies to work to highly reduce the amount of chaos both physically and spiritually.