Brahma Kumaris Info - the Truth about BK Meditation

I wanted to pick up on a point andrey makes elsewhere. I think this probably should go in the Psychic dimension thread ultimately.

What is the correct word for what the spirit called Shiva, or BapDada, allegedly does? In English we have the following words to use; channelling, possession, overshadowing, mediumship and from the BK "divine vision" or "divine insight". And I note here that the BKWSU are apparently at the moment training up some BK Sisters to become mediums for the spirit/spirits BapDada in case the current medium Gulzar dies. (Interesting they would not chose someone like Jayanti to do the job?)

Personally, I have a problem with "absolutely faith" in BK version of The Knowledge. We are missing the key links in the BKWSU history as to when Shiva eventually "came out" and the Brahma-kumaris started promoting him post-1950. Surely such a historic event must be noted somewhere or logged in the minds of the leadership? We have also been lied to and misled, and so I cannot trust entirely without evidence.

What is going on when Shiva/BapDada works through the children, e.g. where he says that he "comes into one of the children and speak the Murli very well"? That I would guess is "overshadowing".

Who or what was being channelled or going on when the children went into trance for days at a time in the beginning and deity forms emerged? That could be "just" divine visions granted as the fruit of Bhakti ... but how? Or, at a push, it could have been spirit possession.

We note that Lekhraj Kirpalani obviously did not know what was going on FOR A LONG TIME and had a hard time coming to terms with it. That to me would class the "Shiva" entrance as a type of possession but that he was originally called a "medium". Yet where trance medium Gulzar is concerned, an entirely different form of mediumship is going on where the spirit is enslaved or doing deals with the BKWSU as to when to come and go.

Has anyone ever had a detailed account of the discussions that go on and why Shiva/BapDada limit themselves in such a way? (And how they know what time and day it is in the Subtle Regions). We know the kiddies version, but what is really going on?

andrey wrote:Here it states in a definite way that he comes and speaks himself. It is different to channeling.

In chanelling there is one chanelled entity then there can be many channels. Then whenever the channel wishes he channels, but here there is no importance of the will of the soul whose body it is. He comes at his own will and even the one whom the body belongs to, He does not understand anything at that time. It is said he, "understands later that such points I did not know". It is said that if you look at, it will just seem like an elder person speaking. There is no change in face, voice. For example with Baba Veerendra Dev Dixit he just elevates the intellect to enable churning to takes place. The Supreme Father Shiva does not have to churn himself.

In chanelling there is one chanelled entity then there can be many channels. Then whenever the channel wishes he channels, but here there is no importance of the will of the soul whose body it is.

ex-l wrote:Then it is a sort of possession then.

You contradict yourself because it is argued elsewhere that Shiva is entering into many channels; Mata, Ram, the young girl of the Golden Circle, Dada Lekhraj (Gulzar) and Veerendra Dev Dixit. It is also recorded during his life and after Dada Lekhraj died Shiv allegedly appeared in other mediums. And now other mediums are being trained up in the BKWSU.

I don't know why the BKs and PBKs are so freaked out about the words "channelling" or "possession". What else could it be? What is the word for it? if it is not "channelling", "possession" or mediumship, then it is a kind of "channelling" or "possession" or mediumships. I have known mediums that were not in control of their spirit guides. It is quite common.

andrey wrote:No, no it is not possession, because it is not a normal soul. A normal soul of a human being is used to possess a body, but this soul never ever has a body, so when he comes freedom comes.

Of course, the BKWSU hides the more psychic of freaky elements to outsiders. For me, they shy away from possession because of its negative connotations and they look snobbishly down at channelling because their god is the highest god ... etc. They do not want to appear common. But for me, Shiva/BapDada are engaged in possession, channelling and overshadowing.

Although I do not warm to the Vishnu Party's way of behaving, I find their theory that the BKWSU is dealing with many spirits, including dead members, reasonable enough. it goes along with Gyan. We also had a much earlier post where some other mystic was quoted considering that the Shiva things was actually some spirit from a far off planet, that it was benign but that it had got reality wrong.

If I am honest, at present, I find those kind of theories (including the obvious superior abilities) far more likely and acceptable ... along with a manipulation of the BK collective energies by the channelled entities. Because of all the damage their do to relationships and the sort of people they chose as their representatives, I am not 100% on what their intent is.

Indeed the whole "Brahma is God" episode, little 15 or 20 year mistake, would encourage me that Shiva was actually some kind of Luciferic influence, as defined Rudolf Steiner, i.e. encouraging the Luciferic traits of;

frenzy, hyperactivity, unification/generalization, one language, gnosis/speaking and thinking, qualitative, fantasy/illusion/superstition, spirit-permeated cosmology, unified vision [United Nations], flexibility, airy, the high flight of Icarus, pagan wisdom.

Rather than ahrimanic (materialism/Mammon) or the Christ or Buddha-like enlightened middle path.

Dear Brother,

In the last post where are we were coming from? I meant that it is somthing to know all kind of information, like who says what, channels etc. Just now there are many chariots of God. It i somthing to know all of them, but then it is something else to be able to tell that he is truthful and he is a liar, because how many Gods are there? If there is one God and he is only the truth, then all the rest are false. Like all these human gurus who attract souls towards themselves.

Maybe if we are not yet ready to accept that there can be one soul - Supreme Soul that is supreme to all souls, Highest on high, no one is higher than him. It is indeed a challenge for the human mind. He will think that certainly there will be someone higher then him, but no, no one is higher than him. No one is his Father. But he is the Father. If we are still not ready to believe this idea, then still we can start developing a sense of brotherhood amongs ourselves. Brothers need not agree with one another or have one and the same oppinion.

No one gave training to Dada Lekhraj to become a medium. There is nothing supernatural in the BK. It is an ordinary study. Trance and divine insight is different. We have knowledge here that is spoken through the mouth.

See, the Supreme Soul has a fixed Chariot. He is bound by the drama to come in a fixed Chariot. He cannot come in anyone else. No matter how many mediums, and channels one may train, it does not mean he will come in them.

Yes, I also don't like saying Baba via Virendra Dev Dixit, but it was you who demanded the clarity of which Baba and as ususal the Admin seconds your oppinion. So i just do out of compulsion. I don't like it because it gives a sense of many Babas, whilst in fact i liked to leave the impression that there can be only one Baba.

One should also be very careful with information nowadays. Not all information is credible. One should separate gossip from information. The mediums training is gossip. Golden
Circle is gossip.

If we like to know God then we cannot know him from anyone else than him. So far we have the Murli - those are his words. Then human beings opinion. One will say, "Brahma Baba was just an ordinary man", one will say, "he was God". So we have God in a form of information that comes from one sourse. Baba emphasises the importance to listen to knowledge from only one because if one is truth, and it is God, then we don't find him in comparison to something else. For example, if we recognise an apple, we don't have to see a pear to know that the apple is an apple.

andrey wrote:One should also be very careful with information nowadays. Not each information is credible, one should separate gossip from info. The mediums training is gossip. Goledn circle is gossip.

How do you know it is just gossip? I think you should get clarification from Virendra Dev Dixit before you just dismiss it as gossip.

Please get clarification and then report back to us.

andrey wrote:One should also be very careful with information nowadays. Not all information is credible. One should separate gossip from information. The mediums training is gossip. Golden Circle is gossip.

Spoken like a true Madhuban Dada! "Don't worry baby ... go suck on a Murli and you will feel better. Don't think about too much. Let us decide for you"

Probably "gossip" has a specific meaning to Andrey school of thought and other PBKs. Just like "permanent" does not mean "permanent".

Andrey, we know these things to be true and there are may other such things to come out yet.

No one gave training to Dada Lekhraj to become a medium. There is nothing supernatural in the BK. It is an ordinary study. Trance and divine insight is different.

In the first place I might agree. I do not know because you are not told about the gradual process of Lekhraj Kirpalani becoming the medium. We are not told the whole truth and we are told a fairy story version. Perhaps no one trained him. Personally, I would class it as a kind of possession.

To say that there is nothing supernatural going on in the BKWSU is laughable!!! "It is ordinary study". Are you joking?

Andrey wrote:No one gave training to Dada Lekhraj to become a medium. There is nothing supernatural in the BK. It is an ordinary study. Trance and divine insight is different.

There are many mediums in the world, both conscious and trance mediums, who are either 'natural' or trained. And the use of the word 'supernatural' simply means that which is above the natural or more than the natural. For mediums and trance-channelers it is simply natural and normal to be in contact with or to be spoken through, all in a days work for them.

Trance and Divine insight is not a neccissarily a different thing, but the BK and PBK systems want to show it as being something that no-one can do or shold be doing in order to make it seem special and unique to them.

An open heart and open eyes will bring benefit to each seeker of truth, there is not one way only to god ...

In the BK and PBKs trance and divine vision is looked down upon. It is said Maya interferes into trance. It is neither Yoga nor knowledge and we should not be interested in these. The Knowledge that is given is given in such a way that it looks very natural. Nothing shows that in this person some soul has come, because this is the incognito nature of the Supreme Soul.

Is there not only one path to God? First we should know what is God, then we may start walking to him? How do we know him. No human being can tell about him. Only he can come himself to introduces himself. But if he comes himself and himself shows the path to him that is easy and natural, why renounce this path for the illusion of others? If someone says God is omnipresent and someone say he is present in one, do they lead to one and the same thing?

Amen.

andrey wrote:In the BK and PBKs trance and divine vision is looked down upon. It is said Maya interferes into trance.

I don't think the BKs look down upon trance and divine vision. It is said in Murli 'if you have divine vision or go into trance do not be pleased with that, do not see it as a sign of an elevated stage'. It is emphasising that the effort needed is through studying Gyan and having Yoga. It is not necessarily looking down on it.

A lot of the early knowledge/ideas were received through trance and divine vision. As to when Shiva actually gave knowledge directly we do not know, although it seems to be generally agreed from around 1951 - 1969 Murlis were spoken through Lekhraj Kirpalani, the years before that are still shrouded in mystery.

As per the 'divine decrees' presented on this forum Shiva wasn't even mentioned until as late as 1949.

john wrote:I don't think the BKs look down upon trance and divine vision.

Strongly agreed. There is a kind of awe and elavated status amongst BKs not just for those that had them, but those individuals that still have them. I mean look at Dadi Gulzar, she gets a new pair of underpants and brassiere everytime God or Brahma comes in her and is treated like a goddess.

For the BKs, it is the active proof of the element of the divine working amongst them and there is a lot of closetted 'going off and checking it out via trance or confirming Gyan onthe basis of the vision. It is obvious that the whole thing was driven by Lekhraj Kirpalani's and the Sisters ability to channel the energy that gave others visions ... because there was little to no "Knowledge" at all.

This is what upsets me about you Andrey, you have a powerful and dedicated mind but you are willing to stand up on your soapbox and make idealist statements that are not the reflection of reality, like an orator. I know I upset you but I am here, down on the ground, picking over the reality of this whole mess. I know that what it says in the Murlis is not to be ... but no one listens.

I only remember one BK in my time having a real divine vision (there are loads that imagine they do) and it was very funny. He left the room to go to his bedroom, opened the door and all he could see was "heaven" He could not move, he could not even lift his head, it was just the ground and nature he could see. He walked back into the commonroom with his jaw wide open, utter shock, eye like saucers just repeating time and time again, "I've just seen heaven, I've just seen heaven ...". It complete blew him aware and made real Gyan for him.

He left a year or so later. I would say all BKs that have not secretly want one or more.

What about you? What is the truth? No defending yourself with Murli points. (I have not, I only saw/see points of light, sometime white light, feel waves of energy and a pressure on my third eye).

Let us not villainize mediumship. We cant send all communication by physical means. Who's side are you on anyway?

It requires trust and faith. Personally, right now, I don't trust anyone. No one is invited to use me as an instrument. At the same time, I will maintain a trust/ faith in the Supreme Being, untill I know/ understand otherwise. Someone elses paranoia is not enough.

It may not be safe enough at the moment for everyone to start that sort of activity. Let's clear the non-corporeal regions first. In fact, lets get rid of these dodgy demons once and for all.

I am churning on the possibility of the Confluence Age being a window of time in which things become fluid and changeable with regards to pre-destined Drama. Is the confluence completely pre-destined? Can we get rid of these unwanted beings for ever!? Let's try. I don't want to be watching my back in the new world, let's pull this one out by the root, for ever.

LOVE conquers.