ex-BK Robert Shubow of Sat Yoga Ashram resurfaces

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ex-l

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Re: ex-BK Robert Shubow of Sat Yoga Ashram resurfaces

Post18 May 2020

Is it significant that both were Jewish?

(Remember also key foundations in BK UK developments, Maureen Goodman and her husband/financier David). At the same time, I am thinking of other key contemporaries, such as Richard Alpert (aka Baba Ram Dass), Dharma Bum Allen Ginsberg, etc who helped bring Eastern spiritual traditions to the West, New Age business leaders like Marianne Williamson today.

In the US, they've even coined a word JewBu for someone with a Jewish background who practices forms of Buddhism, meditation, chanting or spirituality.

Looking at Robert dressed in Whites with a white shawl, just like the BKs, he could be a BK; but he could also be a rabbi or orthodox Jew wearing a Tallit (Prayer Shawl).

Just as BKism offers access to religious status to non-Brahmanic cast individuals, does Eastern spirituality offer access to guru/rabbi status to Jews who otherwise by birth, sexuality, or experience would be excluded for it. Or does it just appeals a much softer, easier path? Something to which their heritage of intellectual tendencies can be applied to.

It's an tendencies that many Jewish within Judaism have questioned, eg 'THE JUBU IN THE LOTUS: WHY DO SO MANY JEWS BECOME Buddhist?' or 'Of Tao and Torah: New Age Beliefs Are Making Serious Inroads in U.S. Jewish Life'. My off the cuff answers would be because, a) it's a way to become religious without being religious, especially for those who reject the patriarchy/orthodoxy. (One found a similar disproportionate preponderance among Marxists), and b) that it appeals to intellectual heritage. What the article above says is, it's a way for them to ditch the historical baggage (and other tribal groupthink) of being a Jew.

But, going back to Robert as a BK and guru, it's not clear to me whether,
    i) he still conceives of god and soul in the same way as the BKs do,
    ii) he still conceives of god and soul in the same way as the BKs do ... but presents it to his followers in the monist, "Everything is One" kind of way they expect (as indeed the BKs do in public), or
    iii) he believe that he knows better than the BKs and that God is the monistic "All is One" kind of god.
From a BK point of view, there are very deep and serious problems if he has ditched one wife to take a younger other.

Apart from a few fake marriages for the sake of vias, only their god Lekhraj Kirpalani has been allowed to do that.

Robert, like Lekhraj Kirpalani, has chosen not to be part of an establish lineage or tradition, but rather start their own ... to some degree. Both borrowing heavily from their past but starting their own business using the pieces.

Has he bettered BKism? Has he a new, improved, better developed product?

And how is he handling the difficult issue of accountability without Seniors or peers to go to?
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Pink Panther

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Re: ex-BK Robert Shubow of Sat Yoga Ashram resurfaces

Post19 May 2020

He obviously thinks he offers a better product otherwise why would he be doing it, and why not profit (!) from it personally rather than pay "royalties” :D ?

There is also a disproportionate number of Roman Catholics amongst Western BKs in my experience. They tend to BK in a very RC way. !!

What they have in common with Jewish people is that, generally speaking, both are very strong in emphasising that personal identity is linked to the institutional/traditional collective identity.

So even though someone may find themselves dissatisfied with their birth tradition, they can easily transfer that, to manifest the pattern of identifying themselves ”spiritually” in terms of their relationship to an organisation, in this case with a some kind of patriarch (God, Abraham, Pope, bishop, parish priest - Brahma, Dadi, zone in charge, center-in-charge) - archetypal patterning. Of course, people bring that stuff to Buddhism etc too where the Buddha or the teacher is venerated, or the Dalai Lama or a guru takes on their projections.

There is also that thing of ”its not a religion, it's a spiritual organisation” and "I am spiritual, not religious" etc. Pure semantics moulded to serve the (current) ego. Few people clearly define these terms for themselves, they use them in very generalised ways. Kind of like the way people say " I don't know much about - art/religion/ spirituality/etc - but I know what I like".

And having a right to an opinion or a belief doesn’t mean it is right.
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ex-l

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Re: ex-BK Robert Shubow of Sat Yoga Ashram resurfaces

Post19 May 2020

Pink Panther wrote:He obviously thinks he offers a better product otherwise why would he be doing it, and why not profit (!) from it personally rather than pay "royalties” :D ?

Because he did not want to be dominated by stupid, [old], narrow minded and bigoted women for the whole of his life and, rather than just take the profit for himself, saw the writing on the wall ... that if he remained submissive to them, all his wealth would end up supporting their lifestyles?

I was going to insert a Dr Freud "mother issues" cartoon here but thought that unfair, as we don't know, but I'd have to ask if he break for independence also came at, say, the same point as he received a family inheritance and decided it could be better spent than handling it over to those women?

I think what I don't get is how if he saw through it, did not he see right through it, or reject it all? Is some other instinct kicking in?

(* Please note, I am not expressing generally sexists attitudes here but specifically to the Brahma Kumari leadership that he would have been expending his life for and giving everything to, under the guise of them knowing better and he earning "multi-million fold good karma back. Many male BKs do ...).

I find it notable that none of these - what would you call them? - 'once rock star BKs' who stepped out on their own with varying degrees of success, eg Mike George, Brian Bacon, Marc Fourcade (Spring Consulting, Goa/Apla Point Retreats, ie 30,000 Indian Rupee for 3 days) etc ever cared to accept a little peer reviewing, or defend their current activities here.

Of course, there'd be no money or status in it for them, and they'd perhaps just see the risk of a degree of damage by association or revelation.

But I note most if not all of them downplay their BK backgrounds, eg Robert claims Sri Ramana Maharshi as the ashram's patron sage (whose teachings, BTW, are incompatible with the BKs) while downplaying the Brahma Kumaris to "10 years in a Brahmachari ashram in India" (which he did not do), Marc re-markets it as "Indian Philosophy - Oral Traditions from Bharat 1981 – 2014, Activities and Societies: Research on Self-Mastery, Holistic intelligence, Self-Organised Systems and their Strange Attractor. Fractals and Entropy."

is not BKism written down?

Robert's aiming at the Yoga market, Marc's aiming at the corporate market, but both models are surprising similar in many ways, eg basic price for retreat THEN sold extras at add on prices. Both, plus Brian and others, shacked up with attractive women/partners, which BKism would not have allowed them to do ... I don't know about Mike George.
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Pink Panther

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Re: ex-BK Robert Shubow of Sat Yoga Ashram resurfaces

Post19 May 2020

ex-l wrote:... that if he remained submissive to them, all his wealth would end up supporting their lifestyles
... when, with a little razzle dazzle, he could get others to support him!
ex-l wrote:I think what I don't get is, if he saw through it, how he did not see right through it, or reject it all? Is some other instinct kicking in?

Some people, and I include myself in this, are naturally curious about, interested in certain subjects, and, of those, some can’t help but feel impelled to share what they know, they have to teach, have to be out front. I think it's a way of finding a validation of self!

But also, speaking for myself here, the teaching part is complimentary to the learning process, then, getting paid for what you are interested in makes more sense than paying for what you are interested in!

I do that with music teaching - I don't make much out of it, never been more than very part-time, but by teaching music I stay involved with music, and getting paid even a little is a bonus. And I feel like I am a musician and not a fraud.

However if it, the spiritual teacher role, becomes a full time gig and a full time identity, if you take it seriously, it's hard to let it go and just be an ordinary guy again. You have to give the customers what they want, right?

Was listening to an Allan Watts talk earlier today. I loved this part which relates to topic:
Allan Watts wrote:Be cool. That's the whole art of Zen you know. It's cool Hinduism. (audience laughs) The Hindus come on a little strong. When someone like Sri Rama Krishna openly announces he is the Godhead, that's pretty tough. And when Sri Ramana accepts the puja of all the followers, and Sri Aurobindo sits every day for darshan, that's coming on a little strong.

The Zen people feel that’s just a bit too much. And the way they come on is, they're ordinary. They say ”when two Zen masters meet each other on the road they need no introduction. When thieves meet, they recognise each other instantly”!

So they don't say anything, don't make any claims. As a matter of fact, so far from making claims, all good Zen masters say they have not attained anything, they have nothing to teach. And that’s the truth!

Because, anybody who tells you that he has some way of leading you to spiritual enlightenment is just like someone who picks your pocket and sells you your own watch!

Of course, if you did not know you had a watch, that may be the only way to get you to realise !!! (laughter)

If though, the people who do, by one means or another, prepared or unprepared, disciplined or undisciplined, get into this kind of "interior secret about the nature of universe", and they have hitherto been insecure about themselves, they’re going to use this secret as some way of creating trouble. And are stirring things up, and are boosting their own inadequate character structure - which is a word I prefer to use instead of ”ego”.

Arcane

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Re: ex-BK Robert Shubow of Sat Yoga Ashram resurfaces

Post19 May 2020

How coincidental!!

I had my day spent listening to Uncle Watts.

Beautifully written, pink panther! :)
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ex-l

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Re: ex-BK Robert Shubow of Sat Yoga Ashram resurfaces

Post19 May 2020

Pink Panther wrote:But also, speaking for myself here, the teaching part is complimentary to the learning process, then, getting paid for what you are interested in makes more sense than paying for what you are interested in!

Reading the discussion forum from above, I note one attendee being 'taken' for nearly $3,000 donation to support the ashram during the current downtime, despite she herself noting how they had accessed her for her wealth beforehand.

I imagine "spiritual teachers" develop wealth assessment into a fine art, it's one critique we've often made of leading BKs such an Janki Kirpalani, managing the time and attention given out according.

Does Robert have a 'right' to sell all his extra-curriculum knowing and attention in an informal setting if people are willing to pay for it?

Does he have a right to re-sell "always free" BKism, albeit with his extra, added ingredients?

Well, I suppose you can get away with whatever you can ... until you hurt someone.

Reading what little I can find, it appears in the past he's done counselling/therapy and hypnosis. Even taught hypnosis classes ... there's references to hypnotic work of "asking the higher self to enter the body and speak/work through it" that, while I heard of similar within hypnosis therapy, certainly goes beyond orthodox BKism.

America is obvious a lot more commercial, and perhaps liberal/undiscerning in such matters but I suppose having been an attorney is a good practise for charging extortion prices for an hour of one's time. Albeit he'd make more in law than as a guru.

I don't know ... my only real concern is that he is still infecting people with the BK virus under the guise of all sorts of other stuff. And I am curious to understand how and why he can sticks with it, whereas so much of the rest of him has clearly moved on.

This is something that comes up quite often in ex-BKs ... they remove their bodies from the BKWSU, but not the BKWSU from their soul.

Personally, even 40 years later, I still consider myself a potential vector for contagions. Certainly, in the first - say - 10 years after I left, I was still doing so. Partly under the possession of a sort of "but what if?" (Destruction paralysis fears); perhaps, partly, getting off on the ego trip of being "the spiritual one".

Is he a Western "master"?

Arcane

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Re: ex-BK Robert Shubow of Sat Yoga Ashram resurfaces

Post24 Aug 2020

At around 23 minutes of the video.

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ex-l

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Re: ex-BK Robert Shubow of Sat Yoga Ashram resurfaces

Post24 Aug 2020

Which bit are you commenting on? The rigidity of the rules based individual?

I have not had the time to watch it right now. Seems to be about the trauma of not feeling wanted as a child ... which, I'd guess applied to a lot of female children in India where traditionally they were seen as a burden and a son desired instead.
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Re: ex-BK Robert Shubow of Sat Yoga Ashram resurfaces

Post25 Aug 2020

Good old trick - know that those who are coming to you are open to what you have to say (they came because they want) and give examples of the various kinds of experiences such seekers would have had or know about, then you seem to them to be, like, wow, this guy knows about this stuff!

He stole their watch and sold it back to them (as per Allan Watts’s example).

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Re: ex-BK Robert Shubow of Sat Yoga Ashram resurfaces

Post25 Aug 2020

Pink is correct!

Throughout the video, look at how Robert manoeuvres sharing indirectly his own traumas and that of many others, also picturizing subtly the intricate dysfunction and disarray within BKism. How cleverly does he act!! I am perplexed!!
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ex-l

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Re: ex-BK Robert Shubow of Sat Yoga Ashram resurfaces

Post25 Aug 2020

I went back to watch a bit of it but found it very waffly, and Robert very distracted and depending on his notes a lot.

I think I must be cured of any interest in psychobabble. He may or may not know stuff, I did not stick around to find out.

But I wonder why he feels the need to dress up and play the Hindu guru figure? Wouldn't it work just as well in jeans and t-shirt as Robert the ex-West Coast Jewish intellectual? Is it any more enlightening that just sitting at home and watching a TED talk? I tend to think the internet has overtaken this form of pedagoguery, if that is what it is.

If I was sat there, I'd be thinking, what on earth is he trying to say? I think he's getting old
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Re: ex-BK Robert Shubow of Sat Yoga Ashram resurfaces

Post26 Aug 2020

There’s still a major fascination, hence market demand, for the exotic outer forms (appearances) of ”spirituality”. Take for example the recently deceased Baba Ram Dass (Richard Alpert) who was one of those hugely instrumental in introducing eastern philosophical idea to popular culture in the 1960s.

He was a colleague of Timothy Leary, bith university lecturers. My guess is that Shubow has largely modelled his Shunyamurti persona on him. At the beginning of this new persona, Ram Dass not only took on a new name but also all the outer appearance of a Hindu guru, the dress, the sandalwood smear on the forehead etc. Fair enough if one is trying to break away from an old way of being and immerse in a new one. We all did it as BKs. But after a while the shallowness of that makes itself felt - to most people. What is name and form anyway?

"Shunyamurti" is performative spirituality.
Three pertinent quotes by Jean Giraudoux (29 October 1882 – 31 January 1944), French novelist, essayist, diplomat and playwright.
    "The secret of success is sincerity. Once you can fake that you've got it made.”

    "When you see a [guru] who can go nowhere without a staff of admirers, it is not so much because they think s/he is beautiful, it is because s/he has told them they are handsome.”

    "Only the mediocre are always at their best."
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ex-l

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Re: ex-BK Robert Shubow of Sat Yoga Ashram resurfaces

Post26 Aug 2020

I still see the bones of BKism under the fleshing out he has given in, e.g. he goes on about the "chit" becoming entangled, as in the soul becoming body conscious; the emphasis on "at the time" etc.

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Re: ex-BK Robert Shubow of Sat Yoga Ashram resurfaces

Post27 Aug 2020

Look at the blend of Virology and Atmanology. High time the world needed "Information/Disinformation Act." The height of symbolism!! Darn!!

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Re: ex-BK Robert Shubow of Sat Yoga Ashram resurfaces

Post27 Aug 2020

He's talking absolute nonsense, is not he? It's just a stream of buzzwords with no proof and highly spurious meaning, if any. Not to mention he gets the science bits wrong.

Probably time for him to go into silent retreat soon.

I see the BKs are milking the whole corona thing on Youtube, complete with numerous songs about it. I should imagine that the BKs are so relatively disciplined and submissive to central control that their community is probably performing quite well subject to corona.
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