The Brahma Kumaris: Spiritualism and Channeling

Saying that Shiva can enter anyone is one thing, it does not mean that Shiva IS entering someone simply because someone makes such a claim. There could be many eventually making such claims, and who is to agree or disagree?

Personally, I think the sooner we get all these souls who are hanging around into bodies the better, what are they all doing? Would they not be better off on the world stage sorting out this mess? Enjoy yourselves up there, it all changes at some point, and Shiva may indeed have to look to a wider area for instruments, hence the constant nagging for souls to become angels from Brahmins.

Shiva may change instruments at some point even just to shake those who may have gotten used to the idea that God came to the BKs and did not create the BKs. BKWSU should mean universal spiritual organisation. This is Shiva's vision, in practise, it is far from the mark. The BKs do not tell Shiva what to do, the tail does not wag the dog, the tail will find this out, and may not wag so much.

So, Shiva, the pure universal spiritual being is the main currency, thats fine by me. When Shiva becomes impure, then we can conveniently label that one any colour we wish.

peace

Dear all,
Omshanti. As regards my comments about God Shiv not entering into a virgin, it was based on a Murli point from a Sakar Murli (narrated by Shiv through Brahma Baba) and published by BKs.

“Now there is no kalaa (power of soul consciousness). This knowledge of Father is not in the fate of the biggest personalities or great souls etc. They are proud of themselves. Mostly it (i.e. The Knowledge of Father) is in the luck of poor people. Some people say that if He is such a highest Father, then He must enter into the body of a big king or a pure sage etc. Monks are only pure. He should come in a virgin. Father sits and explains, ‘whom do I enter into?’ I enter into the body of that soul only, which takes complete 84 births. Not even a day less. ” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 21.11.05, page 2 published by BKs)

The above revised Murli point a manipulated form of the following original revised Murli point dated 15.10.69 – “Now there is no kalaa (degree of soul consciousness). There are no praises for them. Human beings do not know this. It is not in the fate of any of the highest personalities or great souls etc. Mostly it is in the luck of poor people. He is such a highest Father. So He should enter into a body of a king or pure sage. Monks are only pure. He should come in the body of a pure virgin, but it is not according to the rule. He is a Father, so how can He ride on the body of a virgin? Father sits and explains ‘whom do I enter into?’ I enter into the body of that soul only, which takes complete 84 births. Not even a day less. ”

In the Murli dated 15.10.69 Baba is telling that “He should come in the body of a pure virgin, but it is not according to the rule. He is a Father, so how can He ride on the body of a virgin?” It proves that Father Shiv does not enter into the body of BK Gulzar Dadi, who is a virgin. Is it true that while revising the Murli dated 15.10.69 on 21.11.05 the words “but it is not according to the rule. He is a Father, so how can He ride on the body of a virgin?” have been deleted so that the remaining words, i.e. “He should come in the body of a pure virgin” could be used to prove that Father Shiv enters into the body of Gulzar Dadiji? If it is true then is it not improper to manipulate the versions of God Shiv? Is it proper to take the support of falsehood to prove God, for whom it is said “God is truth?” Is this manipulation in Murlis being done to counter the progress of Advance Party, which says that the role of Father Shiv is going on at some other place in some other body?


Baba is telling that Father comes in the body of that soul only which takes complete 84 births, not even a single day less. BKs say that Shiv entered into the body of Dada Lekhraj Brahma and narrated the true knowledge of Gita. But Dada Lekhraj left his body in 1969 itself, i.e. many years have been reduced from his part in the 5000 years drama. So does it mean that Shiv played the role of a mother only and not a role of Father through the body of Brahma Baba? So is Shiv playing the role of Father at some other place through some other person, who takes complete 84 births, not even a single day less? Isn’t that person Shankar, who has been shown sitting atop a globe while all the souls of the world are returning to the Soul World?

With regards,
OGS,
Arjun

So ...

Does the entering a non virgin thing make any sense to anyone?
Or more to the point why not a virgin?

I guess choices would be limited in the case of virgins.

I don’t know much about channeling. I have often heard it. I suppose there is difference of chanelling and entereing. Like there is the Channel to connect England and France. Neither England does enter France, nor France enters England. Likewise, I suppose the soul that’s is channeled stays where it is and there is only a channel, a connection with it becomes possible. Supreme Soul Shiva comes himself and enters a human body and is present himself. He leaves the Supreme Abode and comes.

Supreme Soul Shiva comes himself and enters a human body and is present himself. He leaves the Supreme Abode and comes.

Well, you are just being daft to play with the words "The Channel" and "to channel", its a shame because otherwise its a good topic. I have seen and known other channellers and mediums and spoken to them about their experiences.

Let's broaden the question, what is the difference between;

• "entering" as Shiva does into its "chariots"
• "entering" as the religious founders do according to the BKWSU into their "chariots"*
• "mediumistic channelling" via non-BK mediums
• "mediumistic channelling" via the BKWSU/AIVV mediums
• "possession"
• "overshadowing" as Shiva says he does through ordinary BKs.

How is "entering" different from "possession" apart from the quality of the soul?

I am not sure that the entering of Shiva into Lekhraj Kirpalani was voluntary, certainly the way the BKWSU tells is, it was not. Which would make it possession rather than channelling. But, of course, the BKWSU may have re-written actual events so it is hard for us to tell. Perhaps through the earlier experiences of the Shiva speaking or being relayed via the trance messengers and other mediums Lekhraj Kirpalani agree to become the channel for the Shiva soul.

We don't have Lekhraj Kirpalani around any more but we do have Virendra Dev Dixit. How does he relate the experience of Shiva "entering" him?

Actually, the anaology of France and England could be accurate. England was once part of France. Perhaps the Shiva soul was not actually an independent being at all but a part of Lekhraj Kirpalani; his higher self or anima say, that rejoined him. His mistake thinking it must be God but actually it was just his higher self. This model would allow Virendra Dev Dixit to have also reach the same level of consciousness and appear to be ShivBaba but prohibit ShivBaba from being a unique individual.

Religious founders;

* the BKWSU theory is that a powerful "new soul" descends from the Soul World into the body of an older soul that has probably lived in the Silver Age and thereby have some memory of a heaven on earth. The two souls split and reincarnate in oher bodies, life after life without release, to maintain their religion, e.g. the new Christ soul enters the body of the Jesus soul and together, two souls in one body, they become "Jesus Christ" - I don't know if the PBKs have the same theory.

What does "daft" mean ... let me have a look in the dictionary ... daft ... why not use simple English ... now i cannot find daft ... daft ... oops i found ... I admit ... the post was meant for you, but what is shame is to compare entering of the Supreme Soul with entering of a spook.

What does matter is what is spoken? What does spooks and channels speak? The example is accurate. A channel is something between two other things. Now we have a direct meeting with nothing in between.

A channel is something between two other things. Now we have a direct meeting with nothing in between.

No, mediumistic channels act identically the same as Gulzar ... or perhaps even Lekhraj Kirpalani. Obviously, I did not see Lekhraj Kirpalani in action.

With the non-BKs mediumistic channels it is just the same as Gulzar;

they sit in meditation sometime playing music,
their body shakes and their soul (allegedly) pops out of their body and then another being or beings enter,
their voice and mannerism change and they talk whatever "wisdom" they have.

Then after a while it says it is going to leave and does and the medium comes back. Obviously different from ordinary psychics who just listen and repeat what they hear from the spooks.

I asked them about the difference in the feeling between picking up a spook and picking up a higher being from some other realm and they confirmed it was distinct.

Some are higher than other ... just because you are dead does not mean you are enlightened [ ... not my words]. Personally, I could accept that Shiva is a higher being and that Lekhraj Kirpalani has raised himself beyond the majority of humanity BUT I cannot say that I know he is the be all and end all. May be he is just keeping souls that are not strong enough in samsara, down in The Cycle rather than release from The Cycle ...

But if this is a Spiritual University, let us discuss it properly instead of the personal snipes.

We don't have Dada Lekhraj around any more but we do have Veerendra Dev Dixit. How does he relate the experience of Shiva "entering" him?

When Baba Virendra Dev Dixit is specifically asked about Shiva entering into him, he denies it altogether because nobody can or should claim that God is entering into him/her.

But while addressing the above question as part of the clarification Murlis he has said that whenever Shiv enters into someone to do service of giving knowledge, then it can be recognized by the fact that such points of knowledge which were not in our intellect earlier also emerge suddenly. But one can only guess that Shiv might have entered and narrated knowledge through him/her but cannot claim in a definite manner.
Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

When Baba Veerendra Dev Dixit is specifically asked about Shiva entering into him, he denies it altogether because nobody can or should claim that God is entering into him/her.

On one hand that is good, it shows his integrity against all the allegations cast his way; on the other hand, it throws up another controversy we have touched on elsewhere regarding PBKs remembering Shiva in Virendra Dev Dixit. Why would they do so if he was not there? There is contradiction. So, should I extrapolate then that the experience of Shiva entering into one is so subtle as to be negligible where in a possession the effects are distinctly noticeable?

It is clearly stated in the Sakar Murli that Shiva in some way enters ... although I would prefer to use the words "overshadows" because we do not know if he actually enters ... the children. It is stated he does so to help speaking the Murli and so on. Again, he says that is so subtle that some children do not recognize it and think the increase in power/clarity was them.

As we have discussed, some of us have experienced the feeling of being moved or guided whilst giving dhristi quite tangibly ... I am sure that none would claim to have been entered either. But perhaps "overshadowed". The questions again then would be, "by whom?" and are there more than one soul entering and overshadowing junior BKs?

• Is there a word for "overshadowing" in Hindi/PBK-speak?

In English, it is used for when a higher spirit or master envelopes or enters into some sublte body of a human being to have an effect, often in healing or consciousness raising etc but that the human does not leave their body as with trance medium Gulzar. It is different and more subtle than channelling where the "entity" can see, speak and act and have control of the body.

I guess in this thread we are discussing just how Shiva has his effect again. Whether it is by actually taking control and doing or just by being and raising the consciousness of the recipient who then thinks, speaks and acts from within that new consciousness ... and learns how to sustain it by themself. Again, I am not an expert, I have just had enough experience on which to ask questions. But I feel these questions are important for individuals like myself that have been stuck in the kindergarten of Gyan and fed baby food too long.

To me this seems to one of the most important yet least talked about topics with PBKs/BKs.
Murli clearly gives many examples of how Shiva takes over or controls Brahma, but is this the case? It's a very shaky topic and really after 70 years of Shiva giving Murli/Murli clarifications it should be clear by now.

ArjunaBhai, do PBKs ask Virendra Dev Dixit directly about this or is it a bit taboo or are souls being too polite to ask? I am starting to get the picture that the chariots do not even know when Shiva enters, but how could this be?

I did ask questions in the PBK Q&A section relating to this topic, but as yet no replies. I wonder if it is a topic that is avoided or brushed under the carpet ...

I am starting to get the picture that the chariots do not even know when Shiva enters, but how could this be?

Certainly, from the BK side I remember the Seniors saying distinctly that they could not tell when Shiva was there and so they just pressumed he was there all the time, which is what they taught. But then they were Lekhraj Kirpalani's gopis.

I am still interested in the difference of the mechanism used for all spiritual interventions, I am guessing their is little to none bar the quality of the soul intervening. As in we all have backdoors to our consciousness, or have a backdoor opened up and that is how and when others spirits or souls can enter or attach themslves. It is said that non-human spirits can also attach themselves to us. Some of the channellers claim to be chanelling non-human spirits from various dimensions, I make no comment, Shiva is one too.

- When Baba Himself is telling that ?I enter into him; even he does not come to know of it. There is no date (of entry of Shiv into Brahma)?, then how can the BKs say with a guarantee that Shiv entered into Dada Lekhraj when he suddenly got up from one of the spiritual gatherings of his lokik guru and had divine visions of Vishnu in his room?
- Baba is telling that we cannot calculate the date or time of His entry into the corporeal medium. Date or time of birth can be calculated only for human beings, like the soul of Krishna (Dada Lekhraj Brahma). But in case of Gulzar Dadi, the date and time of entry of BapDada is calculated many months in advance. So, who is entering into her and whose entry are they fixing many months in advance - is it the Supreme Father Shiv or the soul of Krishna?

Baba is telling that we cannot calculate the date or time of His entry into the corporeal medium. Date or time of birth can be calculated only for human beings, like the soul of Krishna (Dada Lekhraj Brahma). But in case of Gulzar Dadi, the date and time of entry of BapDada is calculated many months in advance. So, who is entering into her and whose entry are they fixing many months in advance - is it the Supreme Father Shiv or the soul of Krishna?

Well, that is a block quote from Arjun we have seen before. I am not doubting it but it does not answer the original questions relating to the mechanisms and difference and go into depth and detail.

• What dealing goes on between the BKs and the spirit of Lekhraj Kirpalani?
• What preparations, apart from a clean set of clothes?
• How is she afterwards, is she tired or charged, soul consciousness?

I have heard that the BKs say she is not the most deep and intellectual person and the change is personality whilst she is channelling is proof she is channelling something.

• Do we agree she is channelling?

No, but I have had spontaneous past-life regressions, if that is what you mean by regression.

Yes. I was witness to a past life regression session. Where basically the hypnotised person was a soldier who died by drowning (in his past life). He told how peaceful it was after he'd got past the initial drowning bit. It seemed all for real, but you never know if he was a stooge.

I used to wonder if everything originated in India, but I may be still hypnotised by my BK days!

haha yes, mind you my interest in India was way before I became a BK and I was always surprised at how many things we would consider Western in origin came from India. It wouldn't surprise me if hypnotism was one of them ...

Look again at Howiemac's last message to us before he got his full freedom. You will see he went to a psychic to be freed of his possession by S\B. Now, like all people who are well and healthy again, he does not need us and has said his goodbye. This forum was his stepping stone to freedom in the full sense, not just freedom from the BKWSU but freedom from Brahma Baba and S\B.

Just to set the record straight, I did not go to a psychic to "be freed of possession by Shiva Baba". I was simply informed by a psychic that the BKs still had a "hold" on me, which I took to mean that I was psychologically attached to them, even as an ex-BK.

I do not consider that Shiva Baba, or any other BK entity, possessed me at any time. Although I did experience bodiless entities trying to possess me on a number of occasions during BK life, these beings did not (to my knowledge) succeed. I did not require exorcism or other such psychic help to recover from my BK experiences, although I can well believe that others might require such help.

I do feel that I was programmed by the BKWSU's systems, and that this programming takes a lot of unravelling.