Going to Madhuban?

for ex-BKs to discuss matters related to experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
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bansy

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Re: Going to Madhuban?

Post28 Feb 2009

Tom's post has sound advice.
mr green wrote:My life was completely ravaged and ruined by the BKs.

The very thought of the term "BK" can trigger off huge emotions for some people. So being an "ex-BK" doesn't even help. This forum can have an opposite effect on some as it bring out the past. Is this forum helping folks or not ? This forum exists whilst the BKWSU exists. An ex-BK will still exist when the BKWSU doesn't. And doesn't that stink.

However, if any person can find in their past some good parts of their journey and hold onto that fond moments, use that to extinguish all the other things, and move on. Instead of holding on to the things you hate, rather hold onto the moments you loved. (Of course, someone is going to say that what was thought to be loved was a fake, but that is your own decision. Even if things are fake, you can still love them, after all how much more fake or even real can it get further).

Mind you, that term "BK" will still be deeply ingrained in the brain cells for some who have been in Gyan deep, but at least it won't be on the surface. It may resurface later, but one hopes that by that time other things in the other 3-4 brain cells will be plenty to suppress that all annoying "BK" term.

A while back, Mr Green had left this forum and I thought that was good (meaning I thought he had found a way out). This is why when anyone says they are leaving this forum, I bid them farewell, not ask them back. Because I don't want them back (in a friendly way). It has done its job. Or so it seems.

And I am still here. :-?

p.s. for that reason stated above, I still support the use of NO LABELS. It serves no meaning and simply triggers emotions directed untowards. Someone who "likes" the BKs does not mean they support it or have anything to do with it. Why put words into someone's position? Someone who is a BK will posts plenty of Murli points and talk Gyan points from morning to night. Someone who likes the BKs has accepted them as they are and moved on. I like apples and Powerpuff girls and paper packages tied up with string, but I don't worship them. I like Manchester United, but I don't support them.

Get a grip of yourselves. (Stranglers). My advice, up to you.
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desi_exbk

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Re: Going to Madhuban?

Post02 Mar 2009

I thought it is relavent to this thread that I mention about the corruption and coercion that takes place in India, all in the name of 'Madhuban'. This is a fist hand account. Usually the entire travel arrangements to Madhuban, including the train reservations are handled by center-in-charge and one/couple of the pukka Brothers. Each family or the member going to Madhuban is asked to pay the full price of the train ticket to the center-in-charge. However, since these reservations are done in groups, you get a group discount - quite significant - which center-in-charge utilizes but will never tell the members.

Difference is then pocketed all in the name of putting it in Baba's bhandar.
Members are kept in dark about this discount. This to me, is plain swindling. Remember, some of these folks are eeking out a living and these travel expenses - especially if it a family trip - is way over their budgets.

Also, these so-called 'meet the Dadi' events - it was Prakashmani when I did my pilgrimages - are basically a means of raising more money. Folks are already prepped to donate as much as they can in the meeting with Dadi.

Of course, everything is in cash. You are even chided if your contribution to the pot is not significant. Jewellery is accepted as well. Then these collections are presented to Dadi (you can only imagine the pride of the center-in-charge). This culture is implicitly encouraged by the leadership.

I guess it is a competition between center-in-charges as to who can generate more money on a given Madhuban party trip.

bansy

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Re: Going to Madhuban?

Post02 Mar 2009

deccani wrote:since these reservations are done in groups, you get a group discount - quite significant - which center-in-charge utilizes but will never tell the members. Difference is then pocketed all in the name of putting it in Baba's bhandar.

It is not the cost of the ticket at issue here, as travellers would have to pay the cost of the ticket anyway, it is what the extra difference is used and accounted which is unknown.
competition between center-in-charges

I presume you are talking about centre in charge in India. Any ex-centre-in-charge BKs on this forum would like to comment ?
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paulkershaw

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Re: Going to Madhuban?

Post03 Mar 2009

It most certainly happens in the West too, I have knowledge of this group ticketing discount being utilised by the center-in-charge. When I once booked my own ticket through a separate travel agency I was 'informed' that this was not good 'yukti'.

Yeah, right.
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enlightened

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Re: Going to Madhuban?

Post03 Mar 2009

deccani wrote:I thought it is relavent to this thread that I mention about the corruption and coercion that takes place in India, all in the name of 'Madhuban'.

Dear Deccani

Please be aware that this kind of corruption doesn't occur only in India. In most of the major cities in the UK, they make group bookings for flights and I believe that for every 10 or so people booked, they get one free flight. Who uses those free flights, well, your guess is as good as mine.

Please be aware that this occurs on a global level and in more than one ways

Regards,
Enlightened

Terry

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Re: Going to Madhuban?

Post04 Mar 2009

enlightened wrote:Oh and not only does Nayna Dattani run the BK Travel Agency, she is now an author of the following book as well! ... I wonder who the proceeds for this book are going to!!!!!

Why is that question relevant - the links clearly show the book as being by the authors AND the Brahma Kumaris - you'd expect the proceeds to go to either or both. Only becomes interesting if it goes somewhere else.
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desi_exbk

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Re: Going to Madhuban?

Post04 Mar 2009

enlightened wrote:Please be aware that this kind of corruption doesn't occur only in India. In most of the major cities in the uk, they make group bookings for flights and i believe that for every 10 or so people booked, they get one free flight. Who uses those free flights, well your guess is as good as mine.

Looks like this is another of those BKism universals: lying and cheating. Yeah, it comes in that sweet package - smile, display of innocence and a little bit of coquetry. Ofcourse, topped with toli!!

I guess we can compile a list of BKism universals.

Terry

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Re: Going to Madhuban?

Post04 Mar 2009

I will play devil's advocate here ... If the individual was booking their own seat they would pay the same. If they join into a group booking, it is their responsibility as the consumer to inquire about the product. If they found out that there were benefits to be had by the agent, that they disagree with, they can withdraw their business.

(Out of 14 trips to India, I only went with a group once or twice, the rest of the time I just informed people of the details and made my own arrangements).

This only becomes an issue of possible corruption, and worth discussing only if there are blatant lies or deceptions happening. Can you state that is the case?
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desi_exbk

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Re: Going to Madhuban?

Post04 Mar 2009

terry wrote:worth discussing only if there are blatant lies or deceptions happening. Can you state that is the case?

Not disclosing the group discounts - which they avail - to the members is an obvious cheating. Note that, for many Indian families, these Madhudan trips are already financially taxing. How about sharing the discount with everyone? Or at least, let everyone know how much it is - members get the satisfaction that they are contributing to the pot in some form.

If you are asking if they literally lie, yes, I have seen that too. Not just travel, but about lot many things. It is yukti after all. Anything goes for Baba's seva!!
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Mr Green

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Re: Going to Madhuban?

Post04 Mar 2009

Nayna was a good friend of mine, she would make individual booking for you if you ask her. She was one of the early cooks, has been in Gyan a long time and is still human ... a good laugh even.

The book was put together by the literature team and designed by Jaymini's web team, some tasty treats inside and satvic of course
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ex-l

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Re: Going to Madhuban?

Post04 Mar 2009

enlightenment wrote:Please be aware that this kind of corruption doesn't occur only in India. In most of the major cities in the uk, they make group bookings for flights and I believe that for every 10 or so people booked, they get one free flight. Who uses those free flights, well your guess is as good as mine ... You might want to get further information from Nayna in London who apparently is the expert and has been running the BK travel agency for years.

I never knew this.

The following is a true story. Way back as far as the mid-1980s I approached the Seniors via Maureen Goodman about an idea I had. I discovered that if you could guaranty so much business every year, it was possible to set up a tavel agency. I did the mathematics, realised that if all the BK travel was put through one point that they would easy pass and went to the Seniors with my idea.

My idea was that is we did, we would be able to offer all the BKs discounted traveled, in essence taking out the middlepersons/agents commission, plus they would save on all the international air travel the Seniors did. I can promise you that I never had a single thought about making money or taking benefits out of such a system. I am not that way motivated.

In her sickly sweet way, Maureen told me "not to bother my intellect" with such an idea and keep my mind free to remember Baba, doing her little point to the ceiling routine. I thought she was been small-minded or dumb but let the idea go because I was being a "surrendered BK" and following the Seniors' Shrimat. It seemed crazy to me.

I wonder now if - even back then - they were already getting some kind of 'rake off' and just wanted to hide it ... to keep someone else out of the picture? And you are right, it is not just a UK Yukti. It is international. We had someone else come on this forum and talk about this going on, I think it was in South America. Certainly a Latin country. So it seems to be a regular "fix", a commission for the center-in-charge. So I guess they must "discuss" it and pass the idea on.

I see from the accounts, all the travel to Madhuban is centralised as "pilgrimage to the founding Father's homeland in India" £227,282.

The accounts are strange in this aspect as they do not seem to list all the international air travel the Seniors do.
terry wrote:Why is that question relevant - the links clearly show the book as being by the authors AND the Brahma Kumaris - you'd expect the proceeds to go to either or both. Only becomes interesting if it goes somewhere else.

It is relevant because it is more circumstantial evidence adding to an increase whole picture of the way the Brahma Kumaris leadership does their shady, under-the-counter, inequitous business.

Its relevant because the Brahma-kumaris sell themselves as being the "holiest or holies", a divine family, completely pure and wise ... not some bucket shop scam merchant to whom "consumer rights" might just apply.

It doubly relevant here as the individual in question is someone who is involved in what can only be called a "ticket scam" with the agreement or instructions of the SS. We have long documented and discussed the hypocrisies and Shrimat/Maryadas contradictions of BKs. It has been spelled out elsewhere.

Its all a question of "transparency" yet again.

Terry

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Re: Going to Madhuban?

Post05 Mar 2009

ex-l wrote:Its all a question of "transparency" yet again.

So they are into merchandising ... Mate, with this example of the cook book, it's on the FRONT COVER of the book! Mind you, I did like your story about your idea for a travel agency and the finger point.

Dear enlightened - is the current set up a registered agency, as per ex-l's idea? If so, they would have tax issues and detailed accounts which ex-l says is lacking in the main accounts.

Or is it an organiser & going through another agency?
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ex-l

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Re: Going to Madhuban?

Post05 Mar 2009

What is not written on any of the front, back or insides is WHO in the BKWSU gets to keep their royalties, who gets them for what, who does not and why.

I think you are being deliberately blind on two levels. I will go as far as to say you are being deliberately dishonest here because you know damn fine "the game" from the BK point of view.

a) the moral and ethical implications at the level of the once lauded Brahmin principles (called the Maryadas or Shrimat) of which the "not discussing business/not lending money/not charging for service" was at the core. The center was for spiritual advancement not personal or financial advancement. Changed days ...

That was the salespitch, the binding covenant, which included the promise of a spiritual equality and "family" to which 1,000s of individuals gave all or part of their lives to.

Like some vast beached whale - created by other people's wealth and free labor - this "spiritual commonwealth" is now being hacked off, cut away and quietly resold by a 'chosen few' useful individuals on the 'ad hoc' basis of favoritism for their own personal gain ... as is, of course, the running of some centers and the financial benefits that brings.

Being a Brahma Kumari is one of the few "semi-respectable" ways for an Indian woman to gain personal and financial independence. Being appointed as a center-in-charge, or an SML/Oxford Leadership Academy consultant is/was a way of them holding on to talent. Being made a Madhuban resident some kind of Nirvana for many. Meanwhile, the rank and file buy the books, pay their ticket and taxi commissions ... and gain no benefit.

    to put it into plain English, "be good, play the game and we will cut you in or let you in on a few scams to improve your quality of life".
b) the legal and ethical implications of the commonwealth of a registered charity or 501 non-profit, held in trust for the betterment of society, being slowly converted into private business or given for the personal benefit of individuals, e.g. the newly married Marneta Viegas of Relax Kids (child of a BK, good for service) being given accommodation to live in and the use of the charity's property to promote her business ... or the charity being converted into a business venue for non-BK retreats.

My guess is that we only know the tip of the iceberg as far as cash holding, rake offs and personal bank accounting.

Terry

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Re: Going to Madhuban?

Post05 Mar 2009

ex-l wrote:I think you are being deliberately blind on two levels. I will go as far as to say you are being deliberately dishonest here because you know damn fine "the game" from the BK point of view.

Keep your shirt on, I did say
terry wrote:I will play devil's advocate here ...

Someone's got to do it. Otherwise all kinds of things can be alleged. What you imply here and in other posts, is that all the money goes into a consolidated revenue honeypot, so it is nigh impossible to unravel who gets what from where and who benefits. In the end, the only way out of this is for a major constitutional reform of the BKWSU.

How likely is that to happen, given that its structure is based on "divine revelation and "infallibility"?
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