Black people are the most impure - Dadi Janki

for ex-BKs to discuss matters related to experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
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freedom

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Post09 Jan 2008

I was in 'Gyan' long time ago when DJanki stated that about being black now, and I was really mad. Or I should say, I did not express my feelings or my opinion about it, but now I see her as a very judgmental person, which takes away her spirituality ...

Life is measured by your happiness, goals, attitudes towards humanity and your loving connection with your God and yourself. So, to me, there are a lot of black people in this planet doing a greater, much greater "job" than millions of white people ... and if you really want to compare in numbers, how many people are 'suffering' (mentally and spiritually) now ?

Hey, who doesn't like : reagge, samba, capoeira ?

8)
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ex-l

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Re: Black people are the most impure - Dadi Janki

Post05 Dec 2008

Black and white unite ... say enough to this lunatic and her followers.

Brahma Kumari Golden Aged Emperor in waiting, one of the 8 top souls of all humanity known Janki Kripalani is quoted with another corker. From the The Tribune, India.com
Based in London for the past more than 27 years, Janki said, "the Westerners were now showing an interest in spirituality. This was because they were now able to understand what constituted grief".

OK ... let's just repeat that breath taking vision of Janki's again ... "Westerners were now showing an interest in spirituality ... This was because they were now able to understand what constituted grief."

Well, I know the old dear only had one or two years of formal education which obviously did not include History and Philosophy but, let's see ...

Spirituality?

    there was Plato 428 before Christ ... then Jesus Christ 2000 years ago ... Saint Hilarion 3rd Century ... the Cathars in the 11th Century ... Julian of Norwich in 14th Century ... The Enlightenment ... Goethe in the 18th Century ... the Quakers and Shakers ... Rudolf Steiner from the 19th ... and then the entire New Age movement of the 20th Century before the BKs camped outside the temple walls with their money exchanging stalls.
OK. I am no historian but I think more than a few folks in the West had some thoughts about spirituality.

Grief?

    How about ... 'The Black Death' ... the 100 Years War ... The Witchhunts and Inquisition ... starvation from the Potato Famine ... the Trail of Tears ... the Holocaust ... Russian Pogroms ... WWI ... the Russian Revolution ... the genocide of 300,000 Armenians ... WWII ... rain on every British Bank Holiday ... gosh, even the death of Princess Diana.
No. I am sorry. I cannot think that grief is anything new either. So what is she going on about?

Oh, I forgot. The Brahma Kumaris have a monopoly on spirituality. They are the only ones to know and experience REAL spirituality. All the others were just new souls have a partial memorial of Brahma Kumari spirituality ... how could I have forgotten?
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Mr Green

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Re: Black people are the most impure - Dadi Janki

Post05 Dec 2008

Ignorance breeds racism.

diiogenes

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Re: Black people are the most impure - Dadi Janki

Post07 Dec 2008

I see this witch hunt against Dadi Janki continues. Misrepresenting what she has said, then convincing yourselves you're right in denouncing her as racist, that her comment perpetuates a desire to place people in inferior status and position to BKs - and conveniently overlooking the fact that Dadi Janki is black.

It is no argument that a large portion of human suffering at a most basic level; lack of food, water, civil liberties, livelihood, occurs on the African continent. What she was pointing out is correct.

The people suffering there suffer because of karma. It is their karma to have been be born there this birth. Her comment was made as an insight into the subject of the workings of karma, made among students with an interest in deeper understanding the subject. You choose to overlook that simple fact in your speculations, geared toward twisting her comment and its intent into a hanging offence, and justifying your witchhunt in the process.
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joel

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Re: Black people are the most impure - Dadi Janki

Post07 Dec 2008

diiogenes wrote:I see this witch hunt against Dadi Janki continues.

Hi Diiogenes,

A lot of the postings about D.J. are from people who have had years - in some case decades - of experience with her, and find her more human than angelic or godlike. They are writing about her words and behavior from direct experience. Not that the dial of purity is necessarily higher for her.

So I dispute that there is a witch-hunt here, or if there is, I think the burden is on you to identify individual posts that are such.
diiogenes wrote:It is no argument that a large portion of human suffering, at a most basic level, lack of food, water, civil liberties, livelihood, occurs on the African continent. What she was pointing out is correct. The people suffering there suffer because of karma. It is their karma to have been be born there this birth. Her comment was made as an insight into the subject of the workings of karma, made among students with an interest in deeper understanding the subject.

I don't dispute that people are suffering. I dispute that people are suffering in Africa because of karma. I think it's possible that karma can be a broad brush that oversimplifies life. A lot of objections to BK philosophy center around the willingness of BKs, including senior BKs, to trivialize the world into black and white. This comment by Dadi Janki is only mentioned here, in my opinion, as representative of a whole world of trivialization of life that happens among the BKs.

I, myself, realized it was time to leave when I observed Dadi Janki ignored the suicide of a BK in London. A healthy person will feel some pain, will wonder what she could have done or said to help, will talk to others about what could be done in the future to help others. Rumors came out of London, but from the top only silence. I took a trip to investigate. I concluded that there is something wrong in a group that puts a higher priority on its public image than on the welfare of its members. If the latter were a concern, surely some formal communication to the group about how to deal with mentally unstable individuals would have come out of the loss of that poor woman's life.

If that is wisdom of understanding karma, good, for those who believe it. Denise Phillips apparently has no such issues; she is still with the BKs.

So there you have it, Diiogenes, to some it is wisdom, to others the naive racism of having lived an insular life.

Joel

diiogenes

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Re: Black people are the most impure - Dadi Janki

Post07 Dec 2008

I dispute that people are suffering in Africa because of karma

Then for all your time in Gyan you still don't understand karma. If the world ignores the plight and suffering of a country, that is karma. If the world offers support and help, that is karma. If a person dies an agonising, sudden death, that is their karma. Another person dies a sudden death, but doesn't suffer - that is their karma. This is exactly why Baba says karma is a deep point.

I have my queries about Dadi Janki, one being the, as you put it, insular upbringing she's had. I only met her a few times, but I've never thought she was aspiring to be God, or be seen as anything more than Baba's child. If insularity is the problem with her outlook and compassion, if she doesn't listen to those around her, she'll be receiving the karmic payback accordingly.

And all this cloak and dagger conspiracy stuff being spun in here about the Dadi Lekraj trust and the wicked Sisters is just a witch hunt as well. ex-l would do well to revisit the 'she's a witch' scene in monty python's "Holy Grail' film. He/she might gain some perspective lost in his/her futile war.
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joel

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Re: Black people are the most impure - Dadi Janki

Post07 Dec 2008

Joel wrote:I dispute that people are suffering in Africa because of karma
diiogenes wrote:Then for all your time in Gyan you still don't understand karma ... If a person dies an agonising, sudden death, that is their karma.

I understand the concept, Diiogenes, I just don't believe it. Not anymore. To me, a child is born innocent. Bad things happen to people, I agree, but not necessarily because they are bad, or did bad. You seem to be using the word as a synonym for "destiny." I don't want to use a concept of karma to explain all, or accept all, or detach from what happens in the world. The world is not neat like that ... not in my experience. My aim is to live in the world, a part of the world, relationships, humanity.

For myself, I examine my participation, conscious or unconscious, in all that befalls me. I don't use the word "karma" in that. Actions having consequences is one thing. An overarching philosophy is another. Many people want such a philosophy, I know I did when I became a BK.

Toward the end of my BK period, I spoke to Maureen Chen about karma. She said she couldn't imagine living without conception of this universal truth ... something like that. The concept is absolute to her. Perhaps for you, too, it is an essential part of your world. I am different. People are different.

Just because some are certain about their conception of what karma means does not mean it is true, or that I did or did not understand.

All the best,

Joel

jann

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Re: Black people are the most impure - Dadi Janki

Post08 Dec 2008

Stuff that BKs send around ... "Obama's first decision". It must be a joke?

image001.jpg
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ex-l

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Re: Black people are the most impure - Dadi Janki

Post08 Dec 2008

Weird that the BKs would send that around. I would say it was racist ... certainly grossly body consciousness about Obama. Of course, to the BKs and according to their philosophy, Obama is the most impure and degraded of American Presidents.
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paulkershaw

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Re: Black people are the most impure - Dadi Janki

Post08 Dec 2008

When this kind of discussion come up I feel that it would be OK to remind ourselves that the BKs only work from their own internal perception base, which in itself is generally extremely limited to one viewpoint only, and the BKWSU's leaders are the ones who dictate the way the followers think and react or respond. It is only once we're looking in from the outside can we possible even begin to see our own views and perceptions as being valid (or not!)

IMO, DJ can only share what's spinning around in her 'intellect' (... ! ...) based on her own perceptions and its up to us as individuals to decide for ourselves, and according to our own perceptions and beliefs, whether or not we agree with her. She's got lots to learn too as do we all. Sorry to note here that, generally, she won't get into 'topic' discussion with other spiritual leaders but seems to tend to only align with those she can 'share' her ideals with. It would be wonderful to see a strong debate led by a knowledge-filled journalist or reporter, trained to set a few 'traps' here and there. It won't happen though.

Every tribe on earth is linked spiritually to the higher dimensional work being carried out on our earth plane and each of our 12 earthly tribes represents the external manifestation of inner archetypes such as; The Warrior, The Sage, The Inner Child, The Healer etc. Each person sitting around Christ shown in the painting of "The Last Supper" for example represents one of these tribes in some form or other. Considering the recent mystical teachings of human DNA evolution, where we're moving to 12 strand DNA structures, we can see how each strand of DNA could create a particular tribe (or group) of human beings, each one specifically walking a path of unique destiny, but linked to all others through consciousness.

So, yeah right, its a judgement to say that black people are the most impure. If there is no clarity offered as to why this is so, (and given in great and open detail) - then it remains a highly suspect teaching or comment . Perhaps listeners to her classes should learn to be asking her why and how she comes to that conclusion. (Again, one should realise that when we see something in others, it's because we have it in ourselves and if at the end of a long life, she's still 'impure' - because she sees it in others - then her path certainly hasn't worked for her!)

Amen.

bkti-pit

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Re: Black people are the most impure - Dadi Janki

Post08 Dec 2008

ex-l wrote:Weird that the BKs would send that around. I would say it was racist ... certainly grossly body consciousness about Obama. Of course, to the BKs and according to their philosophy, Obama is the most impure and degraded of American Presidents.

I agree with the first part of your statement but strongly disagree with the second part.

Dadi Janki may think like that and I have heard similar comments from others but the largest proportion of the BKs I know do not think that way. I think it is more a matter of personal opinion than a matter of BK philosophy.

From the conversations around here, it seems that all the American BKs who voted in this election voted for Obama and celebrated his victory.

Of course, it shows what kind of spiritual leader Dadi Janki is and what kind of an organization it is that would select such a person as their spiritual leader.
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ex-l

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Re: Black people are the most impure - Dadi Janki

Post08 Dec 2008

ex-l wrote:Of course, to the BKs and according to their philosophy, Obama is the most impure and degraded of American Presidents.

On a philosophical level, Obama has not taken "The Knowledge" and not recognized BapDada as God and so therefore in still at the very end of the declining Iron Age and spiritually declining himself. As "Destruction" is without doubt imminently approaching us (we are already past the date for Krishna's incarnation), surely Obama would be the most impure, perhaps last, of the American Presidents at the "Fag End of the Kali Yuga"? George Washington being the first and most "pure" president at the relative Golden Age of the USA.

That is the classical BK theory, correct me if I am wrong. There is no record of "God" or the ghost of Lekhraj Kirpalani refuting any of it.

Of course, I don't believe it. I think it is insulting and insane. I think not so much the democratic election of African-American President is evidence of a fantastic step forward ... but even more the acceptance of a Black women as the 'First Lady of the USA' is miracle. I can imagine more than a few groups are choking at the thought of it. Let us also bear in mind, democracy is seen as an impure degraded political form by the Brahma Kumaris and hardly practised ... the Royal rulership of the America by the British Regent was, philosophically, a more pure according to the Brahma Kumaris

The dissonance between the actual beliefs ... the stated, recorded opinions of the BK God or the 'Perfect First Man' aka Lekhraj Kirpalani ... and the beliefs of its followers or the public front presenting to non-BKs interest me greatly. This is analytical, not critical and not personally addressed to you. I am sure you are aware of it. It seems to be that a prime component of being able to survive within the system is to able to believe (and go through the motions of believing) and not believe at the same time. The cost of that is would seem to be the kind of nervous schizophrenia that you see in many highly stressed, middle-management Sisters or a detached inhumanness other Seniors practised perfect in presenting their "perfect front" to the outside world. Corrections welcomed.

Sometimes I wonder how Janki can keep churning it all out. She know more of the truth of the Brahma Kumaris movement than we do. She is not dumb. She knows all about the re-writes, cover-ups, abuses and manipulations ... and yet she keeps cranking the reality distortion field out. Is the body of the movement in the West moving and developing in a different direction from the teachings and leadership?

An academic asked me recently if rumors were true that Janki Kripalani questioned if, or did not believe that, Gulzar was channeling BapDada/Shiva/God/Lekhraj Kirpalani any more ... could there be any truth to that?
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joel

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Re: Black people are the most impure - Dadi Janki

Post08 Dec 2008

ex-l wrote:The dissonance between the actual beliefs ... the stated, recorded opinions of the BK God or the 'Perfect First Man' aka Lekhraj Kirpalani ... and the beliefs of its followers or the public front presenting to non-BKs interest me greatly.

It's easy to find some special case to justify almost any departure from any rule. Also (and I wish I had kept the link for this) some English psychological study showed that people will generally agree to do something that they know to be incorrect if a nearby authority figure - someone they repose their trust in - has told them that the situation is otherwise. Certainly all those experiments where the subject is commanded to deliver electric shocks to an actor are in the same vein.

I hope you get some power out of finding all the holes, inconsistencies and immoralities in the BK world ... "Giving The Knowledge" ... sounds like some alien thing that is a million miles away. I guess it is the same dualistic black-white attitude as accepting Jesus to be your savior, which many brilliant, creative people do - it's not intellectual for them - and certainly does not diminish (from their point of view augments) their life achievements. Probably I would not make a good (or even bad) Christian at the moment, either.

diiogenes

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Re: Black people are the most impure - Dadi Janki

Post08 Dec 2008

I understand the concept, Diiogenes, I just don't believe it.

Newton's law - for every action there is an equal, opposite reaction - this is the way science describes the same thing, the reality of karma. Choosing not to believe, having been informed, is like deciding to not believe in / ignoring the reality of gravity. The implications are clear how foolish that would be.
Not anymore. To me, a child is born innocent. Bad things happen to people, I agree, but not necessarily because they are bad, or did bad. You seem to be using the word as a synonym for "destiny."

Not destiny as in we're powerless within that. What we sow, we reap. The idea is simple, the point and its implications, infinitely deep.
I don't want to use a concept of karma to explain all, or accept all, or detach from what happens in the world. The world is not neat like that ... not in my experience. My aim is to live in the world, a part of the world, relationships, humanity.

You're saying you prefer to pretend certain things don't exist because they're inconvenient against what you prefer.
For myself, I examine my participation, conscious or unconscious, in all that befalls me. I don't use the word "karma" in that. Actions having consequences is one thing. An overarching philosophy is another. Many people want such a philosophy, I know I did when I became a BK.

Newton's law is not an overarching philosophy, science has developed many premises based on that all encompassing understanding. Are you going to reduce the ramifications of 'every action ...' to suit you too? It's what you're doing with karma.
Toward the end of my BK period, I spoke to Maureen Chen about karma. She said she couldn't imagine living without conception of this universal truth ... something like that. The concept is absolute to her. Perhaps for you, too, it is an essential part of your world.

I railed against it initially, then saw how foolish that was - trying to reduce the reality to fit my comfort zone. We're all subject to the universal laws, of which karma is one.
I am different. People are different.

And, like it or not, we're all subject to the same laws, whether we choose to acknowledge them or not.
Just because some are certain about their conception of what karma means does not mean it is true, or that I did or did not understand.

You either did not understand, Joel, or you're choosing to be willfully ignorant. Setting up circumstances where you can feel comfortable, because the reality appears too complex or confronting, or won't reduce to your terms, doesn't change the reality. At best, it postpones your experience of it for a while. At worst, your denial will see you unprepared for the consequences of your choice.

diiogenes

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Re: Black people are the most impure - Dadi Janki

Post08 Dec 2008

An academic asked me recently if rumors were true that Janki Kripalani questioned if, or did not believe that, Gulzar was channeling BapDada/Shiva/God/Lekhraj Kirpalani any more ... could there be any truth to that?

The only evident truth there is that peddling rumours is no substitute for anything.
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