Brahma Kumaris Info - the Truth about BK Meditation

Murli Pt. No. 64 - ( Songs)

"Yahaan toh Baap kahtey hain mujhey Yaad karo. Yah hai ajapajaap. Mukhh say kuch bolna nahi hai. Geet bhi sthool ho jaata hai. Bachhon ko toh sirf Baap ko Yaad karnaa hai. Nahi toh fir geet aadi Yaad aatey rahengey. Yahaan mool baat hai hee Yaad kee. Tumko aawaaz say parey jaana hai. Baap ka direction hai hee manmanaabhav. Baap thodey hee kahtey hain geet gaao, radee maaro. Meri mahima karney kee bhi darkaar nahi hai." (BKs dwara prakaashit revised Sakar Murli taareekh 11.11.05, page 2&3)

"Here Baba says-remember me. This is ajapajaap (chanting continuously without sound). Songs are also gross matters. Children have to just remember Father. Otherwise one will keep remembering songs etc. Here the main thing is remembrance only. You have to go beyond sounds. Father’s direction is Manmanaabhav (i.e. merge your thoughts into mine). Does Father ask you to sing songs or shout? There is no need to even praise me." (Revised Sakar Murli dated 11.11.05, page 2&3 published by BKs, narrated by ShivBaba through Brahma Baba, translated by a PBK; the words within brackets in the English version have been added by the translator to clarify the meaning)

arjun wrote:• Baba is telling that there is no need to sing or play songs. But it has been observed that ever since Brahma Baba left his body Brahmakumari Institution has been releasing cassettes of new songs almost every year. Apart from this, cultural programmes consisting of songs, dances, etc are organized by every BK centre. Is it in accordance with the Shrimat?

Dear arjun Bhai.

You have pointed a finger at the BK family about the various programmes and playing of songs (like in bhakti-marg); but you have forgotten that the same thing is repeated in the PBK family also in every morning class and even when Baba is face to face. The PBKs are in the same boat of Bhakti like the BKs, maybe at a more subtle level. So Shrimat is not being followed in BK centers nor the PBK centers.

shivsena.

Shivsena Bhai wrote:You have pointed a finger at the BK family about the various programmes and playing of songs(like in Bhakti-marg); but you have forgotten that the same thing is repeated in the PBK family also in every morning class and even when Baba is face to face. The PBKs are in the same boat of Bhakti like the BKs, maybe at a more subtle level. So Shrimat is not being followed in BK centers nor the PBK centers.

Omshanti. Yes, shooting of Bhakti is going on to some extent among the PBKs also but the above statements are not completely true.

I don't know about the Gitapathshalas, but at the mini-Madhubans, songs are either not played during meditation or played sparsely, like a song or instumental music for a few minutes after a silence for 10-15 minutes. This is done when ShivBaba is not practically present in the class. But when ShivBaba is practically present (through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit) in the class (whether mini-Madhubans or any gitapathshala), no song is played during the meditation even if continues for 2 hours. I don't know if there is any exception here and there.

As regards the Murli VCD* that are available, every VCD* contains a few minutes of the recording of drishti/meditation at the place where that VCD* was recorded. This includes few minutes of drishti being given by Baba and few minutes of the the video recording of the audience in which efforts are made to cover every person sitting in the audience. When this recording of drishti/glimpses of audience is being shown on the VCD* generally a BK song/filmi song/light instrumental is played (in the VCD* and not actually in the class as clarified in the above paragraph).

I remember that in one of the recent Discussions one of the PBKs pointed out to Baba about the song that is played at the beginning of every VCD* while showing the recording of drishti and audience, and asked whether it is shooting of Bhakti or not. Baba replied that yes, it was Bhakti. This is being done by the PBKs who prepare the VCD*. It may be possible that even this single song is not played in future. But there may be many PBKs who would like to have at least one song/music being played in the background in the VCD*.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

shivsena wrote:You have pointed a finger at the BK family about the various programmes and playing of songs (like in Bhakti-marg); but you have forgotten that the same thing is repeated in the PBK family also in every morning class

Let me just put a classic non-Bhakti record on to break the conversation here ... "Keep the Customer Satisfied".

Simon and Garfunkel wrote:Gee but its great to be back home
Home is where I want to be.
I've been on the road so long my friend,
And if you came along
I know you couldnt disagree.

Chorus

Its the same old story
Everywhere I go,
I get slandered,
Libeled,
I hear words I never heard
In the bible
And I am on step ahead of the shoe shine
Two steps away from the county line
Just trying to keep my customers satisfied,
Satisfied.

Hi. Although I never thought much about this topic, funny enough, just today somebody passed on to me a mix meditation music and as I was listening to it, I was overwhelmed by feelings of sadness.

Of course, there's a variety of BK music and some is more lively but some strike cords - at least in me - that really are more connected with sadness than with deep peace or silence and introversion; not uplifting.

Maybe other people would perceive the same tracks in a different way, and hopefully composers were feeling good when they made it, but frankly, when I recall the atmosphere at centers and the vibe most BK radiate, I get the same impression. And it is depressing. Could be the result of repression? If any teaching or method of relating to students, is bound or aimed to create such a disempowering state of mind, I would suspect that it ends up creating an army of melancholic zombies, rather than one of world transformers.

Rather than falling under such spell, I prefer enjoying total silence and my own energy and God's, with no interference of man-made "supports".

Its worth discussing.

In the beginning there was only scratching old Bollywood bhogs songs from, when, the 40s!?! And a few devotional songs that started "AIYE AIYE AIYE ..." that went from clunky to catsongs. Then in the 80s, Western BKs surreptitiously started slipping in New Agey whale music type stuff. That was before there was any "official" BK soul-conscious musicians.

Now I hear that they are right up to speed and Madhuban even plays Dub Fusion.

In the beginning, I got the feeling that the Hindiwallahs actually disliked and did not get the Western ambiental music stuff. They liked their Bhakti and Bollywood songs and the bhogs songs obviously did their stuff for the likes of Janki bring back memories and emotions of Lekhraj Kirpalani and the old days.

Now, you have not just official but commercial groups like Bliss and the Australians. Can anyone get me up to speed? One of my 'piece de resistances' was playing David Bowie's Starman (1972) two thirds of the way through a One hour Bhatti.

David Bowie wrote:There's a starman waiting in the sky
He'd like to come and meet us
But he thinks hed blow our minds
Theres a starman waiting in the sky
Hes told us not to blow it
Cause he knows its all worthwhile
He told me:
Let the children lose it
Let the children use it
Let all the children boogie

I agree with you both. The Supremes are good but a distraction from the Supreme. What say others?

Brother Karuna once told me that when he had produced the first BK song cassettes, the demand by BKs was overwhelming. They sold out quickly. The poor quality of the recordings notwithstanding, BK teachers were relieved to have any music to play during meditation sessions, even scratchy, noisy and distorted. Having a suitable player was the "Maya" of that early time: Sisters at every center had to have one.

Music as a regular part of the meditation sessions at BK centers was an innovation. So was "Om Shanti", a late addition according to what Anand Kishore told us. There was no "Om Shanti" in the early days, further evidenced by the absence of this expression in early literature.

alladin wrote:Rather than falling under such spell, I prefer enjoying total silence and my own energy and God's, with no interference of man-made "supports".

This is what the BKs/PBKs are advised by ShivBaba, but He says that if someone is not in good moods/spirits, they can play certain songs/music that increase the zeal and enthusiasm in us.

There are many such Hindi film songs and BK songs. But there are also some BK songs that fill BKs with the sorrow of having missed out on meeting God in corporeal form through Brahma Baba. There is an entire series of such Audio Cassettes/ACDs called 'smriti pushp' containing songs that remind the BKs of Brahma Baba.

I don't know if any enthusiastic BK is planning to bring out songs in the glory of Dadi Maa.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

shivsena wrote: first stage is to recognise Krishna's soul(Lekhraj Kirpalani) through basic knowledge, then in second stage one has to recognise Ram's soul(Veerendra Dev Dixit) through Advanced Knowledge and finally the last exam is to find out the roles of Ram and Krishna in the body of Veerendra Dev Dixit (ie to find out who is the rachieta-creator-alaf and rachna-creation-Be); once you have found out who is 'Alaf and Be' then the whole knowledge will make a lot of sense.

And what about God Father Shiva is he not worth finding?

You claim others are still doing Bhakti, yet you seem more interested in the chariots?

arjun wrote:This is what the BKs/PBKs are advised by ShivBaba, but He says that if someone is not in good moods/spirits, they can play certain songs/music that increase the zeal and enthusiasm in us.

Which makes me realize that he gives practical human advice as well recognizing that not all individuals are in the top level and we all need basic commonsense and to accept what the world can give us now and again.

Do you sense a difference in consciousness between the Hindi music and the Western stuff?

Many BKs in the West used to note how disturbed their stage would be when mid-meditation, it would be rocked by some rollicking Bhakti number. On the other hand, at least those songs used to wake up those that had dozed off and for those that long meditations were a punishment for, indicated that either they could escape now or that there was mercifully only 20 minutes to go ...

This discussion also illustrates how fashions and trends still also exist within the BK Family and become concretized as "the done thing", consumed as if they were Shrimat and our natural desire to be accepted by conforming is used to bind us.

There used to some politics in big mixed Western Hindi centers over who or which music got played that had to be decided diplomatically playing both. It was quite funny. I think small centers had more freedom. But it does all seem to be in the devotional/sentimental realms to me.

To keep matters on topic, did folks feel like they needed to come down, or be brought down, gently after their meditation, by music? Or in reverse, did it help lift them? For a different topic, is this sort of sentimental state actually what is meant as BK-style RajYoga?

ex-l wrote:... that there was mercifully only 20 minutes to go ...

What a laugh it was -- those were the days, eh?

I feel nowadays that the music under discussion was really played in order to ground and re-settle one into one's physical-ness after meditation but did we ever ask why this was played at the end? I never did, just accepted it (or waited desperately for it to happen if I wasn't having good med ...).

At at rate, any kind of music must impact on our selves; emotionally, mentally, physically and psychically too. Play only one kind of music and we become that. I remember one time when we were 'celebrating' (celebating?) raksha bhandan with DJ, and we played some Western music in with the normal stuff. She very quickly told us to only play Hindi music. Blah blah ...

On the other hand, some of my best trance meditations have been in a night club but I wasn't exactly doing sitting down med, was I? ...

DHARNA POINTS-37 (When to play songs)

"Geet bhi bachhon nay sunaa. Aisey-aisey geet 6-8 hain jo sun-ney say hee khushi ka paara chadh jaata hai. Dekho avastha may kuch gadbad hai, toh geet bajaa lo. Yah hai khushi kay geet. Tum toh arth bhi jaantey ho. Baba bahut yuktiyan batlaatey hain apney ko harshitmukh banaaney kee. Baba ko likhtey hain Baba itni khushi nahee rahtee hai. Maya kay toofaan aatey hain. Arey Maya kay toofaan aaye – tum Baaja bajaa lo. Khushi kay liye badey-badey mandiron may bhi faatak par baaja bajta rahta hai. Bombay may Madhavbagh may Lakshmi-Narayan kay mandir kay faatak par bhi baaja bajta rahta hai. Tumko kahtey hain-yah filmi record kyon bajaatey hain. Unko kya pataa yah bhi drama anusaar kaam may aaney kee cheez hai. Inka arth toh tum bachhey samajhtey ho. Yah sun-ney say bhi khushi may aa jaayengey. Parantu bachhey bhool jaatey hain. Ghar may kisko gamee hoti hai toh bhi geet sunkar badey khush hongey. Yah bahut valuable cheez hai." (BKs dwara prakaashit Revised Sakar Murli taareekh 13.10.05, page 3 & 4)

"Children have heard a song also. There are 6-8 such songs, by listening to which the mercury of joy rises. If you find there is any disturbance in your stage, then play the song. These are songs of joy. You know the meaning also. Baba gives many ideas to make oneself joyful. Children write to Baba that we do not experience so much happiness. Storms of Maya come. Arey! If the storms of Maya come – then you play the music. Music is played at the gates of big temples to create joy. At the gates of the temple of Lakshmi-Narayan in Madhavbagh in Bombay also music is played. People tell you – why do you play these film records. They do not know that these are also things that are going to be useful as per drama. You children understand the meanings of these songs. You will feel happy even by listening to them. But children forget. If someone is unhappy at home then they will feel very joyful by listening to the songs. This is a very valuable thing." (Revised Sakar Murli dated 13.10.05, page 3 & 4 published by BKs, narrated by ShivBaba through Brahma Baba, translated by a PBK; the words within brackets in the English version have been added by the translator to clarify the meaning)

And, more to the point, what is his opinion on 'The use of music during BK meditation'.

ex-l wrote:And, more to the point, what is his opinion on 'The use of music during BK meditation'.

Om Shanti. In my experience I agree with Arjun

arjun wrote:but He says that if someone is not in good moods/spirits, they can play certain songs/music that increase the zeal and enthusiasm in us.

I suppose that music during meditation is used for mind to rest from concentration. But of course it is better if you can concentrate on Him during all meditation. For weak meditators (who cannot concentrate constantly) music helps, for strong it doesn't matter if there music or no.

With regards, Shankar

PS hadn't seen word "his", so expressed my

ex-l wrote:Do you sense a difference in consciousness between the Hindi music and the Western stuff?

Yes, there is a lot of difference between the Hindi/Indian music and the Western music. It is basically the difference in language, the musical instruments, the meaning that is conveyed, the cultural and religious elements of the music.

Although my school and college friends used to like Western Music, but I could never associate myself with it till date. The closest that I came to Western Music was the Western instrumental music that the BKs produced in the late 1970s and early 1980s and I like some of that. I remember this silent music used to be played at Madhuban, Mt. Abu during long sessions of Yoga with a few Hindi BK songs in between after a gap of every 10-15 minutes. I liked that system of meditation. The same system is being followed at PBK mini-Madhubans with the difference that a Hindi song is played after few minutes of silence (no music). Even that occasional song, as you said, might be to wake up/alert those who might have dozed off/become less attentive.

ex-l wrote:Many BKs in the West used to note how disturbed their stage would be when mid-meditation, it would be rocked by some rollicking Bhakti number.

Just as I cannot associate myself with Western music, I can understand that it may be difficult for the Westerners to associate themselves with the Indian music.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

arjun wrote:Just as I cannot associate myself with Western music, I can understand that it may be difficult for the Westerners to associate themselves with the Indian music.

The "aesthetics", if that is the right word to use of sound (look and feel, style), of the two are quite different and it makes me ask if the "aesthetics" of the meditation experience are also different?

You quite rightly say that some of the ambient music is "depressing" in nature. I would say it is sort of hyper-sensitively emotive too. Perhaps the Hindi version of "rememberance" is either more robust or closer to Bhakti. Whereas the Western version is closer to a Zen-like aesthetic (although not reality). I do not know Indian centers and so cannot comment but Western BK centers tend towards being, sort of cut off, minimalist, comfort zones whereas I imagine the majority of Indian centers are far closer to the noise and bustle of daily life? (A question).

Then the question of fashion and acceptability comes in. It is very easy to be trapped in derivatives, e.g. some does something once (plays a sort of music), it is new but accepted, other copy it and then it becomes a form around which behavior sticks and becomes the norm, as per the Bollywood songs or the New Age whale music. Our history is close enough that if we put our heads together we could actually track how it developed.

The point I am making is that by the time we reach a derivative form, we are no longer listening to something that is genuinely inspired from within but something that is empty in form and simply seeking to conform to an external "acceptable" model. "Its not Brahmin to listen to x ... y ... z ...", "It is Brahmin to listen to ...". Is it not just personal?

I don't speak Hindi and so for me, the Hindi songs sounded like a clunking, clanking noise and melodrama which is considered a low form or art here. I can see how they had "exotic" appeal to some as "Indian" and were even affectionately "kitsch". But my intuition says that they were external, and so therefore ultimately distracting, forms. Additionally, that through such external forms (Hindi music, clothes, rituals) what we Westerners were often getting off on was not so much a direct relation with the Supreme but a relationship (a Yoga) with the Seniors' relationship with the Supreme.

Or were we just kidding ourselves that this is was the Supreme rather than just an Indian God ... as he seems to sustain and have affection for the Hindi form. Is there an absolute and universal form that we are working towards, a blending of Western and Eastern values ... or are our Western sanskars just full of fault and Maya and need to be ditched along with our record collection?

Surely the Western version of Bollywood songs ought to be The James Bond Theme/Goldfinger, the King and I or The Sound of Music? Silence and a simple bell might be preferable.