Raising financial questions

for ex-BKs to discuss matters related to experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
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ex-l

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Raising financial questions

Post24 Oct 2007

This was in response to an issue andrey raise in another topic, Who is to blame?. It is more a series of questions that a statement and, please, check my figures before you quote them but they are all taken from public records.
andrey wrote:If in the Yagya there are people surrendered against Shrimat (in the Murli it is said that we have to live at home) then what happens with them? Now this has become the dream - to surrender (physically).

So these who are supposed to live at home and go to work, are now surrendered, so who will feed them? One way is donation from others who work and other way is - because still their mind goes in the outside world ... then they start doing business ... with the outside world in order to earn a living
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Firstly, thank you for your in deep and accurate analysis of the situation (see other topic). I have to agree with you andrey and I am happy that even my ignorant and impure consciousness appreciates the Shrimat many BKs have left behind. No sarcasm intended there, I embrace my fallen status and interpret "feeding the surrendered ones" as going far beyond just one roti a day but to extensive health care, first class air travel, multi-media "art galleries", big posters, massed rallies, Palladian Mansions and all the rest.

I would like to add a little evidence to support what you say and take it further. My observation is that there is also an element of position or status afforded according to the individual's wealth and that the formal organization could be moving toward financial self-sufficiency via investments.

In the first case, I question specific examples such as where a BK Sister has a relatively wealthy husband that is willing to support her, e.g. we presume Maureen Goodman in the UK (although their are many supported Indian wives at a low level, would this explain Maureen's rise and influence with the ranks?) young influential BKs in the early days with a family trust fund to fall back on, individuals with large pensions such as Hansa Raval ... and, of course, going right back the beginning, those men and women from wealthy Sindhi merchant backgrounds. (We still do not know who provide the large donation to save the Yagya back in the early days).

In the second case, I noted this elsewhere that the World Renewal Trust was recorded as managing investments, I think it was Indian Tax office records, and I wonder if this is a future trend of the BKWSU to become financially independent and self-sustaining?

Of course, in lokik circles financial planning is perfectly reputable ... but how does such financial planning fit into a world where donators of money and labor have been consistently encouraged to believe that the world is going to end in "two or three years" for decades, individuals have been encouraged to give up careers, take out mortgages etc, repeated failed predictions are erased and such donations are going to be rewarded in a Golden Age to come? See Charities Commission links in blue below.
Charities Commission wrote:Janki Foundation

Financial Year • Gross Income • Expenditure • Residue

31 Oct 2000 • £101,043 • £83,864 = 17,179
31 Oct 2001 • £220,592 • £105,750 = 114,842
31 Oct 2002 • £81,997 • £96,149 = -14,152
31 Oct 2003 • £168,326 • £187,089 = -18,763
31 Oct 2004 • £93,757 • £130,796 = -37,039
31 Oct 2005 • £245,840 • £139,350 = 106,490
31 Oct 2006 • £138,296 • £97,930 = 40,366

Total held = £208,923 ($ 422,003)
Charities Commission wrote:BKWSU (UK)

Financial Year End • Gross Income • Expenditure • Residue

31 Dec 2000 • £1,805,383 • £865,696 = 939,687
31 Dec 2001 • £2,046,404 • £667,627 = 1,378,777
31 Dec 2002 • £2,855,758 • £630,673 = 2,225,085
31 Dec 2003 • £2,138,663 • £882,862 = 1,255,801
31 Dec 2004 • £1,278,572 • £960,804 = 317,768
31 Dec 2005 • £1,585,558 • £1,043,381 = 542,177

Total held = £ 6,659,295 ($13,451,109)
    I say "Total held" rather than "profit" however strong the temptation!
Now, such figures need looking at closer and compared with figures from India and elsewhere but to have saved up £6,650,000 over 5 years is pretty good going.
    Of course I am not saying it is fraudulent, but can someone either correct me where I am wrong, tell me where it goes or how it is being used?

    Is it recycled back to India ... to "Madhuban" ... invested or spent?
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To have bank interest of £100,000 plus one would have needed approximately, what ... £3,000,000 in the bank? (Interest rates vary).
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What are all the properties?
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john

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Post24 Oct 2007

Religion sure is big business.

Maybe they are going to buy gold to make the gold bricks for the gold palaces?
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ex-l

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Post24 Oct 2007

john wrote:Maybe they are going to buy gold to make the gold bricks for the gold palaces?

Darling!!! That would not even buy you one atomic-powered, swan-shaped, vimana flying machine at today's rates ...

I'd love to see BKWSU India's accounts where the bulk of both rank and file followers AND super-rich are.
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tinydot

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Post25 Oct 2007

ex-l wrote:I would like to add a little evidence to support what you say and take it further. My observation is that there is also an element of position or status afforded according to the individual's wealth and that the formal organization could be moving toward financial self-sufficiency via investments.

Do you mean financial self-sufficiency by virtue of interests being generated to sustain the organization? Some really get benefited and financially secured at the expense of others.
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abrahma kumar

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financial self-sufficiency

Post25 Oct 2007

Thanks for the discussion. Maybe I am not quite getting the point of what has been discussed so this contribution might be way off beam but, is the formal organisation a separate entity from the students? Isnt any self-sufficiency that the Yagya may be moving towards derived - to a great extent - from the fact that students/contacts volunteer time, finances and a host of other intangibles? While some of these 'donations' may not be seen as "wealth" in the classic sense of the term, would the BKWSU will be able to fulfill any of its 'objectives' on the basis of investments? I admit that this volunteering model is well established across the world for charities so i am not knocking it as an invaluable method of ensuring that the aims of certain worthy causes are furthered.

I read tinydot's exploration of the issue as being from an 'individual' perspective but if there is a system of 'career' Brahmakumarship (females & males included) based on one thing or another then is there not also a recognisable league of 'amateur' Brahmakumarship that is much to the benefit of the organisation without recompense to the individual?

Who will fill the buildings if the "work" done in then becomes impacted by public disinterest or student disillusionment? To what end will the self-sufficiency then be?

Perhaps wrongly, my mind is connecting all of this to some discussions I heard about the the BKWSU wanting to implement a financial support model in which all monies collected at the local centres are forwarded to the 'Head Office" so that disbursements for building works and other necessary expenditure is applied for (by the centres) on an as needs basis. I do not know if this was a global intent but I wonder if this model has been implemented?

... and so as to not lose sight of question asked by tinydot:
Do you mean financial self-sufficiency by virtue of interests being generated to sustain the organization? Some really get benefited and financially secured at the expense of others.
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ex-l

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Re: financial self-sufficiency

Post25 Oct 2007

abrahma Kumar wrote:is the formal organisation a separate entity from the students?

You raise a number of very interesting points, all of which warrant in depth consideration especially in parallel with "ordained clergy/no members" clause in the articles of corportation and the Janki Foundation/GRC developments being discussed elsewhere. I do not know if you have read over the GRC hospital business stuff and seen how the Yagya is developing there into a commercial outfit, e.g. students paying for training etc. you have that and the kunyas having to pay for their keep/dowries. Is there a broader trend at play here?

Obviously a financially independent elite, an elite free from financial dependency on its donors (money and labor), has much more power over others and is a much more powerful entity. It can just turn around and say, "screw you" or pull up the drawbridge to anyone whenever.

What is next on the agenda? A proper licensee/franchisee system where centers have to be authorized and "buy" services from the headquarters?
tinydot wrote:Do you mean financial self-sufficiency by virtue of interests being generated to sustain the organization? Some really get benefited and financially secured at the expense of others.

Yes, in the first case, and I think so in the second. We read earlier of two pukka-pukka BKs "leaving" and mailing to many others in the UK about the financial pressures being put upon them by the headquarters demanding money from local centers? Again, for me, it is the unaccountable, undemocratic (in the broadest sense) hierarchical system that would concern me on the basis of some of the examples we have recorded here.

This requires more thought ... how consciously planned do you think such trends might be? Or have they always been there, only we "long-lost children" were too naive to see them?

bkdimok

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Post30 Oct 2007

john wrote:Maybe they are going to buy gold to make the gold bricks for the gold palaces?

Om Shanti. There will be a lot of things to buy. This energy will be spent.
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andrey

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Post06 Nov 2007

I was looking discussion no 403 with ShivBaba (in Virendra Dev Dixit) where the issue regarding building buildings and money was raised and I am not sure i understood it well. But what i understood is that Baba (Virendra Dev Dixit) said money will be destroyed and people will start receiving heart attacks.

Indeed it will be also a test, is not it? What will happen if money just vanish, will this cause some stress to anyone?
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abrahma kumar

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Vanishing money - A major crisis

Post06 Nov 2007

On what scale was the 'destruction of money' spoken about? I wonder what other forum members think about the chances of money 'just vanishing'? Pretty slim or none it seems to me. However, I am not an economist.

As a layman, I observe that mankind has invested (pardon the pun) a lot of effort in devising money, and 'monetary systems', as a method of wealth and materials acquisition and distribution; and so the 'just vanishing' of these would indeed be a very stressful happening.

I wonder if ShivBaba (in Veerendra Dev Dixit) was trying to communicate that, however much value money may have, we ought not to delude ourselves into thinking that its purchasing power will always remain the same?

One need just look at the escalating price of oil; not so long 40 US dollars could buy a barrell of oil but given current world conditions we might just be able to buy half a barrell of oil with the same 40 US dollars. The impact of these price fluctuations can indeed give rise to major stress on personal, national and global levels - but we still have money in our pockets, don't we? I wonder if ShivBaba (in Veerendra Dev Dixit) was speaking in terms more specific to individuals than national/international economic systems? I wonder if any BKs got financially affected by what happened to BCCI some decades ago?

Dare i mention Northern Rock? And/or the currrent price of Gold bullion? It can be observed that when the value of the world's major currencies is under threat, GOLD becomes a so-called safe haven. Property is also widely regards as a 'safer haven' than 'cash'. So when it comes to raising financial questions, an organisation's property dealings can not be overlooked as a indicator of wealth, or a form of supposedly less volatile investment than good ole fashioned potentially 'just vanishing cash' :roll:.

Apologies if this is seen as a rather pedantic post. However, i share based on a wish that G-O-D would either desist (or explain clearly what is meant) from filling our heads with simplistic things, from which we misguidedly attempt to fashion all sorts of profound sounding theories and justifications, that are way too complicated for everyday Gyani oblox to cater for.

Thanks andrey your contrubution opened a new angle on this topic for me.

regards
abek
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ex-l

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Post06 Nov 2007

I imagine that there will likely be financial and industrial crashes. Imagine if you were a rich BK who had gotten away with pretty obnoxious behavior, and then your money and business collapsed. All those lowly BK you had trodden on or spoken disrespectfully ...

Of you were a "surrendered" BK and depended on the wealth of the donations or pension to live on ... it would be quite a shock and, frankly, time for your karma to come home to roost.

I wonder how the Yagya is coping with the increase in tax on air travel? It is bound to rise.

But, all the same, I strongly agree with your last point about waffle, God's damp and vague 'kitchen towel', being wrung dry in attempt to extract the water of truth out of it. i think we are being conned on that front. There is hardly any there.
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andrey

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Post06 Nov 2007

There is a saying that money will met 4 destinies. King will take, thief will take, fire will burn or ... i don't know the saying properly. Maybe destinies were five.

Generally, if taxes rise; the government takes. Bank can fail, inflation can make 100,000,000 equal to 1 cent. I have heard stories about the war and inflation in Germany that in one day from morning till evening inflation rises 100 - 1000 times and people used to go with a cart full of money enough to buy a bread.

In times of war, it is evident money has no value. They cannot be of any use. Even if people can corrupt people, no one can corrupt nature to stop an earthquake. It is said that most of Destruction will happen through earthquakes. Not through atom bomb, but through earthquakes. It is said that in such times the practice of remembrance will be proved useful.
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ex-l

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Post06 Nov 2007

andrey wrote:Maybe destinies were five.

The lawyers will take ...
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abrahma kumar

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The 5 Destinies of Money aka How Money Just Vanished

Post06 Nov 2007

It Just had to be five destinies didnt it: 1 for Golden Age, 1 for Silver Age, 1 for Copper Age, 1 for Iron Age, and 1 for Confluence Age. Or is it a mixture of all 5 destiny's only from the Copper Age onwards? Gyan, Gyan everywhere and i just read that the destiny of money is digital.

Perhaps we could coin our own 5 Destinies of Money phrase: King will take, Thief will take, Fire will burn, Lawyers will take, Money goes Digital (and all the PIN numbers are the property of the trademark owner).

How do they say it: The value of your investments can go UP as well as down

bkti-pit

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Re: Vanishing money - A major crisis

Post06 Nov 2007

abrahma Kumar wrote:I wish that G-O-D would either desist (or explain clearly what is meant) from filling our heads with simplistic things, from which we misguidedly attempt to fashion all sorts of profound sounding theories and justifications, that are way too complicated for everyday Gyani oblox to cater for.

I wish so too!
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ex-l

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Post08 Nov 2007

I noticed this from; Department of Revenue (link).

Is the "Prajapita Brahma Kumaris Ishwariya Vishwa Vidyalaya" now some kind of legal entity in its own right? Is the whole debate about the "World Renewal Spiritual Trust" over? Any one have any insight into the real structure of the BKWSU?

I am not a lawyer but they are being told to "apply its income wholly and exclusively to the objects for which it is established" ... what are those objects?
Department of Revenue wrote:Notification No : 202
Section(s) Referred : s. 10(23C)(iv)
Date of Issue : 22/8/2003
Notification No. 202 of 2003, dt. 22nd Aug., 2003

In exercise of powers conferred by the sub-clause (iv) of clause (23C) of section 10 of the Income-tax Act, 1961 (43 of 1961), the Central Government hereby notifies the "Prajapita Brahma Kumaris Ishwariya Vishwa Vidyalaya, Mt. Abu, Rajasthan" for the purpose of the said sub-clause for the assessment years 2003-04 to 2005-06 subject to the following conditions, namely:

(i) the assessee will apply its income, or accumulate for application, wholly and exclusively to the objects for which it is established;

(ii) the assessee will not invest or deposit its funds (other than voluntary contributions received and maintained in the form of jewellery, furniture, etc.) for any period during the previous years relevant to the assessment years mentioned above otherwise than in any one or more of the forms or modes specified in sub-section (5) of section 11;

(iii) this notification will not apply in relation to any income, being profits and gains of business, unless the business is incidental to the attainment of the objectives of the assessee and separate books of accounts are maintained in respect of such business;

(iv) the assessee will regularly file its return of income before the Income-tax authority in accordance with the provisions of the Income-tax Act, 1961; and

(v) that in the event of dissolution, its surplus and the assets will be given to a charitable Organisation with similar objectives.

[F.No. 197/95/2003-ITA-I]

This name is also published in the Gazette of India which is the primary legal "news" publication.
(xxxviii) S.O.2797 published in Gazette of India dated the 4th October 2003 regarding exemption to the "Prajapita Brahma Kumaris Ishwariya Vishwa Vidyalaya, Mt. Abu, Rajasthan" under section 10(23C) of the Income-Tax Act, 1961 for the period covered by the assessment years 2003-2004 to 2005-2006 subject to certain conditions.

What are the legal relationships between the different parts? Who are the names on the papers?

This reflects on the position taken by the PBKs of the legitimacy of the formation of the 'World Renewal Spiritual Trust' and the nature of Virendra Dev Dixit's teachings as being, wrong or right, a bit stuck in the past. If possible, and if they are interested, I would encourage some Indian members to investigate this on the basis of legal documents and public records. I am especially interested to know IF Lekhraj Kirpalani actually signed over his estate to the World Renewal Spiritual Trust and who owned it all beforehand. There must be records.

It may or may not be true but it appears the BKWSU have moved on. One might disagree with the direction in which they have moved, that is legitimate enough. It would just be good to be able to map out the organization and the relationship of all the bits.

I know from my own experience, that when I was drugged up in the intoxication phase, I had no idea about any of this stuff. I just put in my donations and thought my karma was being cleared. But, obviously, this stuff is all going on in the background. Not once did any zone or center I knew of present an annual financial statement to the followers.

The question then arises who or what is, and represents, the BKWSU? The stuff that is going on in our head, the will certain individuals, or all this legal stuff? Down on Planet Earth, it is the legal stuff. Part of that "stuff" is, are we members or ever part of "The Family". Now, if legally the organization has "no members" as stated in the articles ... what are we? Again, the stuff that is going on in our heads or what is down on the papers. The legal stuff say the only role we actually have is of donors. Donors to what or who?

How do we resolve the difference between the Murlis and the paperwork, is BapDada involved and does he care?
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