Avakyt Dadiji - Dadi Prakashmani's Death

Thanks for your feedback andrey, which I understand but I do not find myself agreeing with the distinction nor the inferences you attach the words "death" and "demise". I note the following about the word demise and since the link mentions death and termination of existence I can not see how there is any room for bk-oblox to claim that the word "demise" informs us that the human soul is eternal and exists beyond the death of the human body.

Yes, I could "reasonable" and concede unquestioningly that it is really the case that Dadi's body has met with its demise and that the soul that occupied that body lives on. But, as I read the knowledge-inspired response, i do not even detect room for that interpretation. It was shared that: Regarding the "demise" word, if we look the soul then we cannot use the word "die". "Demise" contains this sense of leaving. What, like "leaving" to return at some later date?

Dear Andrey and the www, please do not feel that this is yet another one of my personal attacks against a forum comrade - I never do that. My earlier question and this feedback are both aimed at exploring if, and the methods by which, the BKs, have their cake and eat it too.

My curiousity is always aroused when the thoughts, words and actions of us BK students 'make/give allowance' (1001 excuses?) for all manner of goings-on in our Divine Family.

Confession: Right now, i still believe that the human soul takes rebirth ... but I am trying to learn new things at the same time as ensuring that the old lessons stand up to the rigours of open-minded questioning.

Thanks Andrey

regards
abek

Just for the record, my position is that we cannot 'know' until we have all of these pieces laid out in front of us and are able to reconcile all these difference.

It is your birthright.

India is in the East from where I am.

It used to be spoken in the context of the zones within India - meaning east of India.

No matter where one may be if he heads just East for long enough, he is to reach the same place where the sun rises.

It used to be spoken in the context of the zones within India - meaning east of India.

That is the limited meaning, I am talking of the unlimited meaning.

Yes, probably there is an unlimited meaning. The way that southern India is India's abroad, then probably as regards to the whole world East will be India itself.

hahhahah, u guys are going off topic!! Hasn't anybody pulled your ears yet?

Are Seniors getting feedback from this forum that they have ready made answers to some of our questions about Dadi's entering the womb? Let's wait for nine months (perhaps eight months) until Dadi's soul takes birth. This "entering in and out of the womb" is too much and sounds a movie fiction to me. Read on for your pleasure...

Bhog Message October 25, 2007 Madhuban
BapDada’s divine message from the Subtle Region for offering Bhog on Thursday (Gulzar Dadi)

Today, carrying love and remembrance of all of you, I reached Baba, and as always, BapDada was standing just ahead. Baba’s smile and the drishti from His eyes were really attracting me and I came in front of Baba. Baba said with a lot of love: “Come, the star of My hopes, come!” Hearing these sweet words of Baba, I became merged in Baba’s arms. All of you can also experience the feeling of supersensuous joy that I experienced at that time.

After that, Baba asked me what news I had brought. I replied: Baba, today, I have brought special remembrance of all the Madhuban resident Brothers and Sisters, the Sisters, who have come for the training, and all double-foreign Brothers and Sisters. Everyone has given you lots and lots of remembrance. Baba said: BapDada also continues to receive love and remembrance from every child from Amrit Vela. This is such a thread of Brahmin life, that whoever remembers Baba at any time with deep love, that one’s form emerges in front of Baba at that time, and their remembrance also reaches Baba. Baba is aware that, at this moment, this child is remembering Me. At that time, Dilaram Baba gives lots and lots of sakaash to the children with such a big heart. The remembrance and face of those who remember Dilaram Baba with their heart comes in front of Baba. So, each child should see how many times his or her face emerges in front of Baba throughout the day. Baba said: I continue to give sakaash to the children every day. Whatever sanskars they are trying to finish, even if they are unable tofinish those sanskars themselves, Baba knows that they are trying and that they also have that aim, but it doesn’t come into their thoughts, words and actions to the same extent as the aim they have kept. So, I give extra special sakaash towards those sanskars of weakness; I give them help. Anyway, Baba only sees each one’s specialities. Baba knows that none of His children is such that he or she doesn’t have any speciality at all.

After that, Baba asked what other news I had brought. I replied: Baba, the Kumaris who have come from the training will complete their training and give you their result themselves. A meeting also took place of the double foreigners who have come. They too have a lot of zeal and enthusiasm to be free from obstacles and for service. Then I gave news of the meetings that have taken place of the different wings of Bharat, that are very well engaged in service. Hearing this, Baba smiled very sweetly and said: Achcha, all are engaged in service, are they? I said: Baba, You are smiling very sweetly. What are you feeling? Baba said: I was seeing how much balance the children have. Those who know how to keep balance, it is said to be a miracle, an art. So, I was seeing the extent to which children have the miracle of keeping balance. I said: Baba, what did You see? Baba said: Even now, there is a need for a balance. At the time of doing service, you do service and at the time of Yoga, you do have Yoga according to your capacity, but Baba wishes you to have a yogi life. A life is at every breath; a life is not for just six to seven hours or for two hours. Baba wants you to have a life of balance. Together with service and remembrance, if you keep the importance of a karma-yogi life, then you will become an embodiment of success. This is why Baba was smiling: when will that day come when Baba sees on His TV the majority of the children as number one in this balance. Baba wants to see only this ceremony.

Then I said: Baba, today I have brought Bhog for Dadi because today it is exactly two months since Dadi left and it is the 25th today. Baba said: Dadi comes to the Subtle Region, as though she is very near here. Dadi is at present in the womb, but she has not come into the bondage of the body or relationships. This is why Dadi just has a thought and she comes. Just then Dadi came there, as though she was there anyway. She said: Baba, I have come, I have come. She even told me: Gulzarben, I have come. I said: Dadi, come to Madhuban in the same way too, will you not? She replied: I do come. I said: I am not able to see that. You come in the subtle form and so I cannot see you. So Dadi said: How can I come in the corporeal form? I said: Just enter someone and come. Dadi said: Now, that is in Baba’s hands. Baba said: Until the child takes birth, she is free from the bondage of the body. She has entered a body, but she is free from many bondages. This is why she also tours around Madhuban, she also tours and comes to Baba.

Then Dadi took Baba’s fingers and went and sat on the gaddi, and sat on the gaddi with Baba just as you would sit at home. Then she asked Baba: Baba, where did you go on a tour today? Baba replied: Today, I went on a tour of the special centres of Bharat. I checked everyone’s charts there, of who is where at Amrit Vela and in which stage they are sitting. Everyone reaches the place of Yoga, but are they in Yoga or are they battling? Only Baba can know the state of their mind. Then Dadi said: I also went to Madhuban today. I looked around everywhere in Madhuban; everyone has a lot of remembrance of Baba and myself. She said: I too have a lot of love for Madhuban, because Madhuban alone is the foundation from where the atmosphere and vibrations spread. It is Madhuban that spreads both good and weak vibrations. I said: I go on a tour to all places that are my arms, Pandav Bhawan, Gyan Sarovar, Shantivan ... Today, when I toured around there, I saw that everyone has our remembrance in their heart, but, as You said Baba, in being absolutely yog-yukt and yuktiyukt in their actions, they are still effort-makers. They have love for me, so, out of that love they should at least do what I did; they haven’t done that. What did I do? I made my life a yogi life; I wasn’t someone who just had Yoga, but I maintained a yogi life. So, whoever remembers me, they should at least create a yogi life like I did. Dadi then said: Whenever you remember me, when you see my picture or when you are walking and moving around, then bring this in front of you: What was Dadi’s stage? Do not just see Dadi’s face or her picture, but bring in front of you what Dadi’s stage was. If you remember me and bring my stage in front of you, then I will also help. By doing so, the intensity that Baba wants there to be in your efforts will also come.

Then I asked: Dadi, what do you do sitting in the womb all day? She said: Now that I have come to the Subtle Region, I don’t remember anything of the womb. I said: It is said that the womb is like a jail, it is not so clean, what feeling do you have of that? She said: Baba, what is she asking me? Dadi did not remember anything at all. Baba said: OK, I will make you emerge that. Then Baba took Dadi in His hands and said: In order for you to share that experience, I will make you emerge that. Dadi said: I am seeing as a detached observer what that stage is. I don’t feel that to be a jail or unclean. I feel that I am sleeping in a palace - the soul has entered the body in that way. There is no feeling or sorrow or anything unclean. Even the mother doesn’t have any feeling of sorrow. My parents (to be) believe that an incarnation is being created; they don’t think of the child as a son. At present, my costume is being prepared and, when it is ready, I will come out. I asked: Dadi, what happens in the womb? She said: I don’t feel it to be a womb as such, and I am not even touched by anything. I am very comfortable here. Mother and Father have just the one thought: when will this incarnation incarnate! Baba said: Did you hear that? Now, Dadi will forget all of this.

Then I asked: Dadi, what thought do you have for the Yagya? She replied: I feel that, just as I was free from attachment (nirmohi) and remained free from negative and sinful thoughts (nirvikalp), in the same way, each Madhuban resident or anyone – Dadi said it for everyone – all of you should quickly give your weaknesses to Baba. Give this burden to Baba. Why are you holding onto it? Dadi was telling me: Is the burden something good? Is it that they like it? Baba said: You have gone beyond all of that and this is why you are saying that. Dadi said: I had given my burdens to Baba from birth. So, why are they all sitting holding onto their burdens? Such an entertaining chit-chat was taking place. Then Dadi said: On my behalf, tell everyone to remember my stage – free from attachment and free from negative and sinful thoughts. Just as I demonstrated these two things to Baba, in the same way, all of you should also definitely do these two things. Become like that and demonstrate to Baba.

Then I made Baba and Dadi accept Bhog. Dadi said: First, I will feed Baba. So, Dadi took some of the Bhog and offered it to Baba and then Baba fed Dadi. Then Baba and Dadi both fed me. Then Baba said: Child, now tell everyone: You have love for Dadi, you have love for Baba. You love both. To have love for Dadi means to have love for the perfect stage. When you say “Dadi”, you should remember Dadi’s perfect stage. Saying this, Baba made Dadi become merged. Then I was alone with Baba. Then Baba said: Baba saw the meeting that took place of the double foreigners and the Bharatwasis. Baba now wishes that, however many programmes you have - you make very good programmes for self-progress and service - but before bringing the programmes into practical form, why should you not first of all have such progress in yourselves and become like that, so that then there is no question of adopting another method; you will then automatically become an embodiment of success. Then Baba made each child emerge in front of Him and gave love and remembrance. Baba said: Give My remembrance to all the children from abroad, to all those from Bharat, to all those who have come for the training and to everyone from Madhuban. Just before then, Dadi had said: Give my remembrance to all my companions, Munniben, Mohiniben. Dadi Janki had given special remembrance for Dadiji and had said: Hug Dadiji on my behalf, so, when I gave Dadiji remembrance from Dadi Janki, Dadi said to Baba: Baba, please call Dadi Janki too. Baba replied; Today is your day. Dadi was also remembering Dadi Janki with a lot of love. Having such a sweet heart-to-heart conversation, and carrying everyone’s remembrance, I came back to the corporeal world. Om Shanti.

Sounds so childish, all this curiosity about, "what does it feel like, being in the womb?"! I just realized that there has been a HUGE amount of Bhog messages given through a variety of mediums, after DK left the body, for all tastes, each one can pick his favourite channeller. I haven't felt particularily inspired or empowered by reading them.

Maybe it would be interesting to have a poll about what people think of it, do they place any importance on that practise? Do they look down on it or be condescending?

Personally, I appreciated those messages strictly during my "Honeymoon "period, even experienced some sync with them as some one (Neo?) also related. Gradually, I became annoyed, restless and drowsy, whilst my a** was freezing in Om Shanti Bhawan. Murli, Dadi Janki's class, Bhog message, announcements, people singing out of tune, etc ... well, if one can pass the test of all that stuff happening on Madhuban's stage, he will become karmateet before breakfast!

Murli, Dadi Janki's class, Bhog message, announcements, people singing out of tune, etc.., well if one can pass the test of all that stuff happening on Madhuban's stage, he will become karmateet before breakfast!

I think you are hurting the sentiments of many souls by using the words 'Dadi Janki's class'. For many it is 'Dadi Janki's Murli'. Aussie forum of BKs is full of these special 'Murlis'

Dadi said: I am seeing as a detached observer what that stage is. I don’t feel that to be a jail or unclean. I feel that I am sleeping in a palace - the soul has entered the body in that way. There is no feeling or sorrow or anything unclean. Even the mother doesn’t have any feeling of sorrow. My parents (to be) believe that an incarnation is being created; they don’t think of the child as a son. At present, my costume is being prepared and, when it is ready, I will come out. I asked: Dadi, what happens in the womb? She said: I don’t feel it to be a womb as such, and I am not even touched by anything. I am very comfortable here. Mother and Father have just the one thought: when will this incarnation incarnate! Baba said: Did you hear that? Now, Dadi will forget all of this.[/b]

Actually, it is quite interesting. Its amazes me but we should be used the likes ... how can we interpret this?

For so long have they been banging on about "Sword of Lust", the "The Jail of the Womb", sorrow, suffering and impurity ... then now that the big Dadi has died, they do a complete U-turn and it is all love and light!!!

Dadi is at present in the womb, but she has not come into the bondage of the body or relationships....

....Now that I have come to the Subtle Region, I don’t remember anything of the womb.

I have no idea about any of this "out of the womb" halabaloo means. When Dadiji is "out of the womb" and in the Subtle Region, is the child(foetus) body inside the mother body therefore "soulless/dead" ?

Anyone see the last part of the movie Rosemary's Baby ?

Bhog messages are seemingly a waste of time, simply devotional messages.

This "in and out of the womb" business reminds me of the infamous 3-card trick scam that roadside rogues used to lull us schoolboys into playing with the hard-earned money that our parents gave us to buy our midday meals with.

The conmen would toss 3 cards down on a little portable stand, shuffling them around every which way, intermittently showing us the 1 card that had white markings underneath, and while doing so they would sing: Now you see me, now you do not, now you see me, now you do not. Keep your eyes open and make sure you see. Reminding us that it was our task to keep our eyes fixed on the movement of the card that had a whitened underside. And when the conman would finish with his juggling and sleight of hand we boys would be invited to place our bets on the card that we thought was whitened underneath. Of course, we would lose our money .

Anyone remember the Sakar Murli in which G-O-D Shiva spoke a point to the effect that until such time as there is fetal movement it can not be said with any certainty that a soul had entered into the body of an unborn child. Did He go so far as to refer to a time frame within which there was no soul present in the developing foetus? (Sometimes i wish i had a photographic memory).

Anyway, I recall that we had quite a chit chat in class upon hearing G-O-D Shiva offer his categoric wisdom in this regard. Our churnings were with specific reference to miscarriage/abortion/settlement of karma.

Baba meeting groups:

Gynaecologists and midwives ...

Did He go so far as to refer to a time frame within which there was no soul present in the developing foetus? (sometimes I wish I had a phographic memory)

I think it is something like 5 months?

If so, then can we expect D Prakashmani to be born within 4- 5 months?

I think it is something like 5 months? If so, then can we expect D Prakashmani to be born within 4- 5 months?

Did He go so far as to refer to a time frame within which there was no soul present in the developing foetus? (sometimes I wish I had a phographic memory)

You called, Master? September 1985 - Hindus In America Speak out on Abortion Issues

"The Brahma Kumaris view the body as a physical vehicle for the immortal soul, and therefore the issue is not "pro-life" or "anti-life" but a choice between the amount of suffering caused to the souls of the parents and child in either course, abortion or motherhood.

They view existing legislation in America as fair and reasonable, with the proviso that abortion after the 4th month should be avoided except in medical emergencies, since in their view the soul enters the fetus in the 4th to 5th month."

• Yes, please! Some one has to ask for an official clarification of this.

Evidence again of the wonders of this forum and having many minds working on the same puzzle.

"The Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University does not take a formal unchanging political or religious stance on the issue of abortion. They advise that each case requires unique consideration. The final decision will be based on a long series of choices made by the woman on her lifestyle, morals and values. Usually, the choices that created the unwanted pregnancy in the first place have been irrational or emotional ones, not the mature commitment motherhood needs.

The Brahma Kumaris counsel those facing an abortion decision, both man and woman, to understand that by abortion they do not escape responsibility for their actions. When both the parents have fully understood the seriousness of the choice, the University would support the right to make their own decision."

ISKCON calls the 1.3 million abortions done in America last year "a kind of doublethink," whereby people deny the status of humanity to the fetus. "According to Vedic literature an eternal individual soul inhabits the body of every living creature ... The soul enters the womb at the time of conception, and this makes the fetus a living, individual person."

Swami Bhashyananda, President of the Vivekananda Vedanta Society of Chicago, says that "under no circumstances the jiva should be destroyed. That is uniformly stated, from the point of conception onward.

Mr. Arvind Shukla, a Gujarati Hindu, says "Abortion is absolutely not allowed. It is called garbha batta, womb-killing. It is papam, a sin. All Hindu shastras say so.

Swami Prakashananda Ma of the Integral Yoga Institute says they always advise against abortion.

Mrs. Mythilli Penumurthy, a Tamil wife and mother living in Northern California, offered her personal view. "I am against it. I think that it is an Atma and I have no right to destroy it." Another Tamil wife and mother, Mrs. Rathi Anandasekharan, said, "Once the baby is conceived it is like killing..."

My photographic memories also remembers the young white Sister who came into Gyan in already pregnant and was given Shrimat that she should have an abortion because Destruction was coming soon and having a child would be a terrible pull on the intellect.

That was over 25 years ago. The child will have left a real university by now because the Sister did not follow Shrimat. I can name the now prominent Senior Sisters that gave the advice.