Official Contact with Sister Jayanti BKWSU (UK) - legal

for ex-BKs to discuss matters related to experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
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ex-l

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Post17 Aug 2007

jannisder wrote:So a BK can blow?? ... Like joints???

No, of course not. "No, nothing". The only thing they can "blow" is their karma ... and that for eternity. Just to keep things 'on topic', this raises a valid question to offer the BKWSU,

    who (and what) exactly is a BK?
The boundaries appear to me to have become fairly blurred.

Personally, I would say a "real" Brahma Kumari was one with a Lakshmi and Narayan/Shiv Shakti badge ... the rest are just "Brahma Kumari followers". I don't know what the protocol is over the handing out of them but they did not seem to hand them out lightly. Around the "BK followers", increasingly, are "lay BKs" - that is a term we developed here not theirs; folks that don't follow principles but like to be seen with or hang out with BKs. They can be proto-BKs, or "serviceable" contact souls. I am not sure they are told everything.

I think the leadership is now promoting a sense of "brand" inclusion that encourages anyone, with any level of consciousness or Darna, to believe they are BKs. Obviously its good for business but I wonder what their honest opinion about such individuals is? Does this seem a fair analysis? The BKWSU marketed a brand like Nike? In the old days, it was far more cut and dry, black and white. I don't think this change is out of a progressive liberalism.

Personally, I think they had to let standard slip because so many people in the West keep leaving. Its a problem even the 'Holy Spook' verbalizes.
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john

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Post17 Aug 2007

Please forgive my analness, but it does say somewhere in the Murlis that if youre not happy with your senior then you should then go to the next in command and it will be put right, as you will well know being surrendered that this is the system. I remember hearing something like that from Seniors but I don't remember it from the Murlis. It could be that I have selective hearing.

I would suggest if anything it is like a parent saying to a child, listen to your big Sister, whilst I am away. It doesn't mean the big Sister is right, everything should be OK-ed by the parents, the big Sister should be working to the parents' wishes.
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ex-l

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Post17 Aug 2007

john wrote:I would suggest if anything it is like a parent saying to a child, listen to your big Sister, whilst I am away.

And are we agree that the big Sisters and Brothers may have just gone too far and taken advantage of this set up, that they require to be brought back into check? Or the rest of the children have grown up and matured in their own right and family is one of equals?
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yudhishtira

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Post17 Aug 2007

In response to various questions; I have been aware for some time that the policy of UK BKs is to approach any property owning long-term BKs to encourage them to either sell their house, give them the money and move into a centre or bhavan; or to take out a mortgage on the property. This is how a lot of money for the current high profile venues is maintained.

Given the BK organisation's track record of supporting their members, and the over trustingness of some BKs, I consider it a dangerous combination. What are they going to do once they've mortgaged everyone to the nth degree! What are those souls going to do when they get older and cant pay off the mortgage? Its hardly sustainable.

Do you think we need to send a response to Sister Jayanti? We appear to have got a little sidelined for the last couple of pages ... 8).
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admin

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Post17 Aug 2007

The following email was sent to the members of the BKWSU group addressing matters raised on this website and forum. Regretfully, due to the previous enclosed threat of breaking off from communications, it has been felt necessary to take this as the only opportunity to raise the most serious issues in one single letter.

It is hoped that the BKWSU takes the opportunity to re-establish trust by addressing the matters raised and general requests comprehensively and engages in the type of positive, practical change that it wishes to be know for doing. Once common grounds have been established, it is hoped that a concrete plan can be agreed to implement change within a clear timeline.
17 Aug 07

Alka,

thank you for the email from Jayanti Kirpalani dated 12 Aug 2007 in which she declines to set out the position of the BKWSU, provide an agenda of the issues she wishes to raise and clarify what her or the BKWSU's objectives were in meeting. We hope that she and her group of advisors realise that there is, in the first place, a need for the BKWSU leadership to visibly re-establish trust. Forum members congratulate her on her courage, extend a warm welcome to her on a personal level, look forward to the chance to discuss aspects of knowledge with her and create unity.

In order to re-establish trust, and to offer the BKWSU leadership an opportunity make amends, the following specific questions are raised;

    • from original BKWSU created and published materials, letters to VIPs and teaching aids, it would appear that there is no mention of the soul we call Shiva from the time of the retirement of Lekhraj Kriapalani in 1932 until some point after 1949. How, when and in what circumstance was Shiva revealed and incorporated to the BKWSU's theodicy?

    • from original BKWSU created and published materials, both Jagdish Chander and Om Radhe have in original documents suggested that Lekhraj Kripalani was his early to mid 50s in 1938, could you please confirm his date of birth as accurately as possible?

    • from original BKWSU created and published materials collated over decades, there is incontrovertible evidence that the BKWSU has engaged in a policy of re-writing both its history and philosophy. Is the BKWSU leadership committed to correcting this, ensuring that all current and future BKs are properly informed?

    • on what grounds does the BKWSU leadership claim copyright over the versions of God or under what license does it agree to publishing of the versions of God?

    • on what grounds does the BKWSU leadership give rights to the use of Gyan in making money businesses?

    • on what grounds has the BKWSU leadership engaged in the increasing sanctification of senior Sisters and Brahma Baba, the use of Lekhraj Kirpalani's image and is this inline with current Shrimat from BapDada?
The following requests are made;

    • that the leadership of the BKWSU provide the most complete copy of the oldest and most original Sakar and Avyakt Murlis and Divine Decrees in English and Hindi, and accounts in detail for any missing year. These are requested in two forms: pdf, so as to avoid any criticism that anyone is changing the original text; and text, so that they can be assembled into an quickly and easily searchable database as demonstrated on the website. It would appear that the BKWSU already has these the majority of these resources already available.

    • that the leadership of the BKWSU publicly provide copies of all rules, regulations and by-laws pertaining to the running and membership of the BKWSU and notes of all responsible incorporated governing bodies internationally and that these are made easily available to BKs and members of the public at all Raja Yoga centers and via the corporate websites.

    • that the leadership of the BKWSU expresses a commitment to immediately stopping the incidents of violence and religious suppression carried out against members of splinter groups counter to their human rights and ensures their personal safety at BKWSU events.

    • that the leadership of the BKWSU expresses a commitment to making a full disclosure of the likely effects of joining the BKWSU to the families of new members and provides such information at all Raja Yoga centers and via the corporate websites to include note of the previous failures in the prediction of Destruction.

    • that the leadership of the BKWSU expresses a commitment to removing all fictional elements and inaccuracies from its multimedia and resists from further propagating unsubstantiated claims, such as with the Dadi Janki incident and others.

    • that the leadership of the BKWSU express a commitment to establishment an independent ombudsman service to provide confidential and impartial assistance to the variety of BKWSU members, their friends and families who have concerns, conflicts, complaints or disputes arising from or affecting their participation in the BKWSU.
Where the leadership of the BKWSU choses to decline these questions and requests, could it please confirm that it has requested confirmation and that this course of action is accordance with Shrimat received from BapDada.

Where contentions exist, the moderators of brahmakumaris.info do request members to establish a reasonable balance of probability but these these will remain confidential unless instructed by the individuals providing them.

With respect to the repeated use of the prediction of World Destruction and the courting of VIPs, forum members note with concern and are investigating the financial pressures being placed on BKs both in India and the West.

Thank you
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abrahma kumar

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Invitation extended to the BKWSU to engage in dialogue

Post17 Aug 2007

Thank you Admin.
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john

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Post17 Aug 2007

ex-l wrote:And are we agree that the big Sisters and Brothers may have just gone too far and taken advantage of this set up, that they require to be brought back into check? Or the rest of the children have grown up and matured in their own right and family is one of equals?

Yes, I believe Seniors have gone too far and presented their own opinions as Shrimat.

bkdimok

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Post17 Aug 2007

john wrote:Yes, I believe Seniors have gone too far and presented their own opinions as Shrimat.

Om Shanti, dear soul. Opinion of Senior instruments is Shrimat. I personally correct mistakes of Dadas, Dadis and Didis if they make them.

Shiv through Shankar
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Mr Green

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Post17 Aug 2007

BKdimok wrote:Om Shanti, dear soul. Opinion of Senior instruments is Shrimat. I personally correct mistakes of Dadas, Dadis and Didis if they make them.

Well, you should check your in-tray as a lot of work is yet to be done.
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john

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Post17 Aug 2007

BKdimok wrote:Om Shanti, dear soul. Opinion of Senior instruments is Shrimat. I personally correct mistakes of Dadas, Dadis and Didis if they make them.

And what did Dadis and Didis say when you corrected them?
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ex-l

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Post17 Aug 2007

Excuse me heading back on topic ... a nice quote from Jayanti from here. If I was to make one criticism about the letter to the BKWSU, I would say it was not definite enough. Let's face, they love having meetings and discussion things. I mean, chit-chat is all they have offered us.

To "expresses a commitment to" ... what does that mean?!? So they express a commitment ... and then go back to business as usual. What point is that? What difference will it make? I suppose we will have to wait and see what they say now though.
BK Jayanti spoke not wrote:
    I have been with the Brahmakumaris for over 30 years and today also I find that it is still that body of knowledge that is the foundation. I was not asked to believe anything. I was asked to explore, investigate, and experiment with spiritual ideas and come to my own conclusion. And that's what I would recommend to anyone.
There are many forms of spirituality, many paths to spiritual progress, how does one determine what is the path most fitting to an individual?
    I would say that there are three factors to watch out for.

    One, is this a path that is based on a particular human personality? And if it is, it's dangerous.

    If, for example, I am told here is somebody's photograph and that's going to bring me salvation, I don't believe it. I think it's only God who could grant us salvation. If it is a path of true spirituality, it should lead me to God.

    Second, if it's not to make me question and I am told just to believe it, again, there should be danger bells ringing.

    Third, if it's a path with a price tag on it, that’s not true spirituality. Spirituality is as free as sunshine; nobody can bottle and sell it. So if there is a price tag on spirituality, beware, it is not the true path.

    The Brahmakumaris, for example, now has centres in around 85 countries across the world. So, you can imagine that includes people of every race, every colour and every religion, every background, every social stratum. And yet, we have the connection with each other as one family. And the concern and care and love for each other as one family.

    So, a person with spirituality is successful when he or she cooperates and encourages the spirit of cooperation.

So I wonder how she squares all the talk of folks getting mortgages with "no money". May be they know the stock markets are going to crash and mortgage companies fall to pieces!!! Here another one to see how it fits ...

BKWSU Poland wrote:The Brahma Kumaris community doesn't want conflict; they want dialogue. They talk to people, explain, reduce prejudice.
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Mr Green

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Post17 Aug 2007

God's honest truth, I nearly cried when I read that stuff by jayanti,

Man, I felt the family love or whatever it was when I was there, like an intense comaraderie ... I did love those people

But it was out of control and we all laughed about the mishaps, but people were getting hurt and that was always just shrugged off just as karma or Maya.

Why cannot Jayanti or any of their public figureheads just be honest?????? It has not all been good!!!!! You know this Jayanti, and I know you don't mind me not using the Sister title.

You and all BKs know the real buzz is trying to bring about the wishes of BapDada with all you have ... I completely respect that, you know that ... It's a mistake, in my opinion, to go through the corporate Western thing to try and get members ... it seems to have created an atmosphere of dishonesty and double standards within the BKs and, unfortunately, it's image looks weird!!!

I always really thought I was a good BK. I really did make sincere effort and all that ... you all know that ... but bad things do happen there. It needs to be a lot more controlled than it is ... I don't know the answers but something more has to be done for ex-members that have had to leave through traumatic circumstances.

It really is not right just to treat them unkindly or think they are anti! it just is not so, I've always tried to be completely honest on this forum ... and I have found much more open minded thinking even about Gyan on this forum than I found in the BKs. You should read some of the discussions on here, not just the stuff about negative opinions of the BKs.

:wink:
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sparkal

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Post18 Aug 2007

Sorry Mr Green, but your humility saddens me. It may even be the dreaded "politeness" sickness. Your every word underpinned by an air of, I don't want to cause trouble, maybe even guilt of some sort. Feeling obliged to accept bullying be it racial, sexist, cultural or sectarian; not to mention financial manipulation.

While the past cannot be changed, we can prevent others from going through the same. For years I have felt this to be my role/responsibility. I never in all my time had a role within the BKs, so perhaps I was always earmarked for something like this and a certain few people knew it because Brahma told them about all this. Dadi was warned of the "Scots" and that they would be coming or something. She will also know the likely outcome.

Manmat I know, but there you go. I don't always do what I am told. I am a troublemaker, like yourself no doubt. A headfull of elevated nonsense and nowhere to put it. When we are lied to, the imagination is left to do its own thing. Everything may be just fine but we are not being told that. In a word, celibacy. Insecure people who don't trust themselves and so are building big rigid rules.

Will the lies be justified one day even? God seems to be able to justify telling lies if it is for the benefit of others. Now that could be abused a fair bit, I bet, by BKWSU. We may have been chased out of there in order to do just this. Honest, open, transparent communication in front of the world.

Weird I know. Open, honest communication which triggers people's "terrorist" alert? Well, I am going to be a bad person if that is what it is. In fact, my behaviour may deteriorate to an all time low if there is not some movement for once in this world in the preferred direction.

Mr Green, could it be that you are a "MIC" soul? Were "they" looking for "us" all along? Were we looking for ourselves? I don't see any other "mic's" around really. What is a "mic" soul"?

(I have a choice today. I have had no vegetables for a few days. I either spend the money on veg, my next money comes in 4-5 days, or I put it towards the debit which will cause me a £30 fine, which may happen anyway. It will have to be the fine, and I will cailm it back. I wonder if Dadi ever had these sorts of problems? Is there someone making sure that I live this way? It all changes now, change, change, change, change ...

We don't have to speak in anger, but I can assure you that you are not being over the top here and I am glad to hear you, someone, ANYONE!, speaking out. Now, what about the rest of you? The ones who read and say nothing? It may be that it will be your voice who really counts in the end. Are there others like Mr Green has done, who suffer in silence. It is not about hurting BKWSU. It is about changing things, tweaking things, because they no longer bring benefit ... TO THE MAJORITY.

Admin telling yogi's what to do? Is this not like little red riding hood asking the wolf for a safe escort through the woods to Grandma's? No, it needs to be changed. It is the "Brahmin" way. We change things if they are not working. So let's get on with it and make these NECESSARY changes, eh? If people get hit in the role that's too bad, or would that be to adopt "their" attitude. How do we know that we are not doing exactly as we are supposed to? Duh ...

CHANGE, the nature of the game, and always was, that bit never changes.
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abrahma kumar

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I and I go liberate Shiv Baba

Post18 Aug 2007

Very interesting post, Sparkal. Thanks. I share a lot of those sentiments. Soon the BKWSU leadership will find out who the real revolutionaries are and the BK flock will discover just how contrary the organisation and its Seniors are. So we go unite and we go fight. Fighting for our rights (not like that bastaaarrrd in Zimbabwe). Maybe Baba needs to be liberated from the BKWSU. A Change IS Gonna Come.

chit chat: To end the post I was trying to locate the lyrics to a song called "New Day" as performed by George Benson (also performed by Womack and Womack). Sadly, i was unable to find it within the time i had available. In his rendition of New Day, George Benson manages to capture Sam Cooke's phrasing very nicely, methinks. So i opted instead to link to the late Sam Cooke's version of "A Change is Gonna Come". Hope you find it inspiring.

A snippet of New Day by George Benson can be heard here: 20/20 CD.

Thanks sparkal.
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Mr Green

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Post18 Aug 2007

Sparkal, in all honesty I rarely read long posts as I have a short attention span or is that fuse.

But I read your post and I am very happy I did. I never seem to get the balance right maybe. You see when I am too caustic, the BKs just parade me as someone saying bad things ( ... hey Nev & Simon).

I wanted to post something that might actually get shown to Jayanti. I believe she just gets shown negative stuff as I don't believe she browses the forum herself at all. I think the squeaky, love-seeking underlings just stir things up. If she could trawl through the myriad of postings on this site, she would not believe we are Anti or PBK run as she presently does ( ... nice one N&S).

You're right about many things there Sparkal but it really seems that only now after my last suicidal episode that I have reached this point of clarity about how badly treated I have been.

When you talk about your situation and your dilemma, it brings to my mind the image of an ex-soldier ... you probably well know that many people who leave the armed forces become destitute and alone because there is simply nothing, or no one, to help them reintergrate with civvy street. Our situation is very similar, except instead of battle scars; we have mental and emotional scars.

The last contact I had with Jayanti made me realise just how asleep or uncaring she really is about people like me who have fallen by their wayside. I mentioned to her then that after being told I was a family member and that I was loved, upon leaving no one had contacted me to see if I was alright. Even though they know I was in deep trauma.

She had the audacity to lie in front of my mother (you see, I wouldn't meet her on their grounds. I got wise to that) and claim she had sent me emails. It simply was a bare faced lie blurted out on the spur of the moment. I was reminded of this by you sharing your predicament and wondering if they were aware of your plight. I have kept every email comunication I've had since leaving and all of them have been prompted by me.

The truth is, I have a very good friend who is still BK, who talks to Jayanti sometimes about me (she really does care enough to jepardise what the Seniors think of her to try and bring them to their senses about the sh*t hole they have left me in). Jayanti has said to her at least twice that she just wants the whole thing finished, like it's a record she's tired of hearing. It's something she doesn't want the headache of ... is this humane, let alone angelic, behavior?

Instead of really wanting to help people whose lives their organisation has ruined, she sees fit to employ the services of small-minded people who see us as some sort of enemy. It really is incredulous that they are so unwilling to accept that we are a product of the very same institution.
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