Sex, Sexuality and Relationships within the BKWSU or PBKs

Dear Brother new_world,

No, the point cannot be for those duplicate Gods, because they are not fathers for their daughters - the souls around them. There is only one spiritual Father for all souls and for him all souls are sons - so the point it is not for him as well. There are also these wordly relationship of fathers and daughter that cannot be denied.

If you have such information about women being made dirty, then this is not strange as also the wordly Father makes his wordly daughter dirty. The world is like this. If you feel we have to do something about it, then maybe you could report the police.

Dear Brother John,

For the soul of Rama becoming highest and lowest is depicted on the picture of The Ladder. There at the bottom he is shown to be lying on bed of nails. That means that he receives sorrow from each connection he has. There is no help from wordly and spiritual familly. That's why sometimes God's form is shown without hands - that no one can cooperate him always. He is a beggar then, and then he becomes the most beloved one and world emperor at the top. This is what is meant by becomeing highest and lowest, not that he makes others dirty when he is lowest. He is the one to follow the path of truth from the beginnning till the end, means the habit of unadultery.

And the bit about "Virendra Dev Dixit (or God in Virendra Dev Dixit) having sex with 60 women"? How does that fit in.

It is not a matter for the police if it was consensual and none of them wish to complain. But I think the rest of us might want to understand how it fits into the bigger picture.

Please address the issue directly. New_world, is this what you are talking about? What is the stuff about "duplication" all about?

False accusations.

I was told it by a PBK, who by all acounts was sincere, earnest and devoted.

He related it to the acts of Krishna in Bhakti, drawing attention to the fact that he made none of them pregnant. I was told that it was performed according to Drama in a way to ensure that no one was to worship him (Virendra Dev Dixit) because they thought he was impure.

Of course, "false accusations" is a very broad brush to brush me away with. (It would have been 59 or something ...). Specifically, what is false and if so why do such sories circulate within PBK circles and from where.

Forget about it. Don't think everything that you are told is true.

I would trust the other PBK more than I trust you. So, no. It will re-define our discussion on purity as it was given as an example of how "beyond lust" he was because the women did not get pregnant, e.g. he did not ejaculate.

I would say it is likely. Tantric sex and the Left Hand Path has to enter shooting age somewhere. It will stay on the backboiler until further evidence arises. Which I am sure it will.

There have been some passing comments that seem to relate about how even if organs touch the mind can still remain pure (approximate quote). We will see what new_world has to say.

Yes, it depends on whatever information one is thirsty for.

Right now ... ? Whether, according to the PBKs, it was God Shiva or Virendra Dev Dixit that had sex with approximately 60 women. (Given this happened once he was Chariot and not outside of Gyan).

It will help put together a fuller picture of God, his Chariot and, hopefully, end the rumors, speculation and accusations.

Disc.CD No.257, dated 12.02.07 at Chaudmaan, Orissa

A mother asked – What is purity? What is true purity?
Baba replied – 'Pure' means the power/energy should not dwindle off and 'impure' means the power/energy dwindles off. If the energy dwindles off, then it is as if one becomes sinful, there is discharge of energy. Now, let that power be of vision, of bodily organs, of speech, of wealth or of body. If the energy decreases then weakness comes, is it not? Suppose someone has a lot of wealth and if the wealth decreases/dwindles off, gets destroyed, then will there be any harassment (i.e. irritation) or not? Harassment (i.e. irritation) is caused. So, decrease of any kind of power/energy takes place only when the weakness of adultery emerges. Adultery makes one unrighteous. That is why it has been shown that – in the Golden Age Radha's vision will be engrossed only in Krishna and Krishna's vision would be engrossed only in Radha. There would not be any kind of adultery. As much the adultery increases so much stronger becomes the desire to enjoy the pleasures of sex-lust. One would surely become sensuous and vicious. That is why it is shown that the sensual pleasures and vices cause downfall. That is why the Father teaches – Mamekam Yaad karo i.e. remember me alone, Manmanabhav i.e. merge your thoughts in me. I guarantee that – If you remember me alone, then I would certainly make you pure. You will rise high (in stage) through the remembrance of one. You will experience downfall through the remembrance of many. When is one reminded of many? One remembers when one sees through the eyes, one remembers when one keeps company through the organs. If one would not keep company then one would not be reminded (of them) either.

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Note:- The Hindi and English versions of the extracts of above mentioned Discussion CD are just draft versions. The words added within brackets in the English version have been added by the Translator to make the meaning more clear.

I made a comment in the "What have these splinter groups got against the PBKs?" thread about Indian sexual attitudes in which I mentioned Osho/Rajneesh's experience in Mount Abu.

I found a quote that I thought summed up the situation very well. This was taken from an recent article that documented local police beating up young couples for the crime of showing affection in public. Not sex. Just affection.

When I spoke on this topic [sex] in the first meeting, at the Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan Auditorium, one woman came up to me the same day and said, "I am very upset. I am very angry with you. Sex is a condemnable subject. Sex is sin. Why did you speak about it at such length? I really despise sex."

Now she is a married woman with a husband, sons and daughters and she despises sex. How can she love the husband who leads her into sex? How can she love those children who have been born out of sex? …To her these children are the fruits of sin… Can one be friendly to the person one is in a sinful relationship with? Can one live in harmony with sin?

Recently, a Mumbai policeman brutally raped a 16-year-old girl in a chowky (police hut) on Marine Drive. The Shiv Sena's official response was to blame Bombay's women for tempting men; "To see girls dangle a cigarette openly is worrisome. If a man is incited by such clothes, who can one blame?"

If millions of Indians see sex (and male-female affection) as sinful, is it any wonder that police thrash young couples who dare to caress in public? Albeit that this too might be driven for the police's corrupt desire for baksheesh rather than moral principles ...

This also sits within the frame of my questions of the general attitudes towards and experience of sex in India. Its all a sub-set of widespread attitudes which is why I want to discuss them here. Has any India Brahma Kumari ever had an orgasm or experienced happy sex? Do Indian women in general merely suffer it? Liberal elite, but Bollywood stars included, the general attitude of Indian men towards sex appears to be half-way between a retarded adolescent and a rapist.

Frankly, from a Western secular point of view MOST "authorised" sex in India sounds like a little like rape. On one hand you have/had child brides, arranged marriages, priestly "interventions"; on the other, you have the quick 2 minute in/outs of the millions of prostitutes in seedy brothels. India has a growing AIDS epidemic second only to Africa.

"Mother India" seems trapped and crippled and victimized by outmoded thinking that would give Freud a field day.

OK. We have still not had a response about Virendra Dev Dixit and the 60 women, but I will continue. This is from an unnamed blogger whose notes match many others; From the Kama Sutra to banning Valentine's Day. Interestingly, one of the author's theories of how the problem arises is "Indian sexual repression is the result of Islamic influence".

Indian reluctance to talk about sex

I recently had a conversation with a gynecologist who had worked in clinics and hospitals in both rural and urban Madhya Pradesh. She told me that she had to use euphemisms to complete her work. For example, if she wanted to ask a woman, "Does it hurt when you have intercourse?" she asked, "Kya apko dard hotha hai jab apkay pati baath karthae hain?" (trans: "Does it hurt when you have conversations with your husband?")

Conversations with Indian and foreign women

I have yet to meet a woman (Indian or foreign) who has not received some sort of sexual harassment in India at some point in time. In Bombay (praised as the most cosmopolitan and woman-friendly city in India), I’ve heard myriad stories of women who have been groped, fondled, ogled, touched, or harassed by men on the street. It seems that if you are a woman in India, you have to become inured to sexual harassment. Here are a few stories to give the reader an idea of what most women have to go through on a daily basis:

1. Men in Delhi buses

I recently had a conversation with an NGO worker from New Delhi. She mentioned that she stopped traveling by bus because the local men would grind up against her, groping her breasts, her crotch, and her behind. The worst was when men with erections would grind against her leg, oblivious to the fact that they were violating her space. Most of her female friends fear traveling by bus because of constant male harassment.

2. The surreptetuous boob grab

A woman from Bhopal recounted a time in which she was traveling through Madhya Pradesh via train. She was traveling second class when the train stopped at a rural station. (For those unfamiliar with Indian trains, second-class cabins have square windows that are crossed with horizontal steel bars). When the train stopped at the station, a man walked up to the train carriage, put his arm through the window, squeezed her breast, and walked away safe in his anonymity.

3. Shall we do it in the cabin as the kids close their eyes?

A Mumbai woman told me about a particularly bizarre incident that took place at a Bombay train station. A few years ago she entered a crowded station with her two children. At the time, one was less than a year old and the other was five. She walked up the stairs of the station with one hand firmly holding the five year old and the other arm cradling the baby.

As she finished climbing the stairs she was on the bridge that connects all of the different platforms. She made eye contact with a man who was yelling into a mobile phone, and the man took this eye contact as a signal that she wanted to have sex with him. He quickly turned off the phone and walked alongside the woman and her children. He did not say a word but continued to walk alongside her. The Bombay woman, cognizant of the situation, made a concerted effort to avoid all eye contact, picked up her pace, and walked directly to the ladies’ cabin. As she waited for the train, the man waited beside her, not saying a word as he continued gazing at her. Finally the train came and she entered with her two children. When she turned around, she noticed that the man was wistfully staring at her. In her own words:

What did this guy think? Because I accidentally made eye contact with him, I wanted to have sex with him? That’s not how it works anywhere. Eye contact does not mean ‘lets have sex’ anywhere in the world. Absurd. But let’s just say, hypothetically, that I had indeed signaled an interest in sex through eye contact. Even if I had done this, it would have been logistically impossible. What, was I supposed to leave my children on the platform and have sex in the cabin?

4. Flik's Story

In one of my Goa posts, I recounted a conversation with Flik, an attractive nineteen-year-old Londoner who experienced a fair amount of sexual harassment in India:

Holi seems to be an excuse for Indian men to molest women. One man ran up to me, threw rang in my face, grabbed my face, and then moved his hands down and groped my breasts. Another guy ran up to me, threw color in my face, and grabbed my crotch... In Calcutta people would walk up to me and say, “Are you married? No? Do you want to have sex with me?"

5. An Islandic woman's experience in India

Revaz Ardesher's recent post recalls a conversation he had with an Islandic woman who had travelled all over Latin America, Africa, and India. She reported that "India was by far the worst sexual harrassment she’d experienced." Revaz concludes the piece nicely: "It’s ridiculous that guys here will get a cheap thrill from brushing up against a woman. Then what? Does he go up to his buddies and say, 'Hey, I came within 5 inches of her boob man!'

Its very apparent here in South Africa too ... a Zulu man for example is taught to have sex up to 12 times a day and is not considered a man unless he does so. So many women are harrasssed and forced into sexual interaction, but they don't always call it rape, just life ...

I often see countless women walk with their head turned the other way and not make eye contact when a Zulu male is making 'eyes' and sexual innuendo at them. Its as if making eye contact with the man is considered acceptance and permission for him to hit home ...

Although it was always claimed that women had stronger sexual desires and, recently, scientists prove that they are physically turned on my more stimulus than males ...

This may not be the right thread to expand on it but if what you say is true, which I never heard of before but would not surprise me, why is it that the Brothers always seem to be looked at as the bad and lustful ones within the BKWSU?

I do remember a class from Denise in Madhuban in which she threw a comment about the Brothers having more problems with lust than Sisters. At the time I thought: "What does she know about it? Has she ever been in a Brother's body to see the difference?"

How can one measure the sexual desire? I'd be curious to see the scientific documentation on this ...

If it was the same class years ago, then I too was in it and I couldn't believe how little was actually covered. Apparently Denise had to get permission from the Seniors to hold that class due to it's 'content'.

How can one measure the sexual desire? I'd be curious to see the scientific documentation on this ...

Of course, it is one of the areas where there is a lot of scientific data ... It is interesting that it was also Denise that raised shocks when she stated the obvious that female BKs were using their sexuality for the sake of service. I wonder too on what basis she made her comments. As usual, Brahma-kumari proclamations are too often empty, unreferenced and without substance.

I cannot find the original article that I had in mind right now. It was recent and depended on studies made with light sensitive electronic equipment that either attached or insert into the sexual organs of the subjects who were then shown a mixed series of images and videos. The equipment measured the increase in blood flushing into the organs under sexual arousal and found that;

a) women were aroused by a greater spectrum of imagery than heterosexual men including those of other females' bodies and animals, and
b) what their minds and their genitals reported was different. That is to say, their genitals were becoming aroused and ready for sex but they did not want to admit it.

Firstly though, just to highlight a study by Dr Thomas Pollet and Professor Daniel Nettle at the University of Newcastle which reported, here, that "women's sexual pleasure is directly linked to their partner's wealth".

This leads me to suggest that the Brahma-kumaris attraction to rich and powerful men, from Lekhraj Kirpalani to who ever is going to sponsor their next center or service plan, may only just be an extension of the same supression desires or evolutionary gameplan. All of the satisfaction with none of the messy sex or emotions ...

My comments were based on samples taken from a very wide spectrum of discussion and some personal experience, i.e. from the scientific and to the traditional point of view in Vedic lore which states that women's sexual desires and especially experiences were many time more stronger than males (they state a specific figure like "7 times" but I dismiss that as impossible to qualify). To state the obvious, women's bodies are designed to be able to have repeated sexual satisfaction (multiple orgasms) where men's are more single minded at the point and shoot level.

I would have to question though whether there was a confusion between two different desires; sexual desire, whether for pleasure or emotional bonding, and a 'merely' biological desire to procreate. One is forced to hypothesis about the preference of the Brahma Kumaris leadership for young virgin females and whether it is much different from dominant male interest the same, that is for both their attractiveness and their submissiveness. The celebate and the neutered are much the same.

Going further than that, one would have to ask what it is about the sexual act that makes an individual "impure" or even dangerous. Does "pure" equate to malleable and submissive? Of course, it is a lot easier not to crave something you have never had and enjoyed very much. One would suspect that the young virgin Brahma Kumaris have had little sexual experience ... in fact, very little by the way of affection as it is practised in the West within families or between sexes.

Looking at other studies that I could find quickly, such as '[url]Thermal Imaging Shatters Arousal Gender Gap Myth; Study Shows Women Become Aroused As Quickly As Men[/url]' - Science Daily (Oct. 2, 2006). The position of all things being equal is supported. It is shown that women become aroused as quickly as men.

For what women really feel, perhaps The Hite Report or the metastudy The Case of the Female Orgasm by Elisabeth Anne Lloyd are starting points?