Sex, Sexuality and Relationships within the BKWSU or PBKs

Hey, I never said that about saris!!!!!!!!! They did not do it for me, I am much more your mini skirt man.

Yes, you are quite right Mr Green; it was that, aherm, 'interesting' soul Joel who said

To speak frankly, seeing an attractive woman in a sari - even in BK regulation white - was a turn-on, and daily "hazard" of my BK life, including and especially during Madhuban visits. I can also remember the feminine swishing sound when they would walk. I don't think there is anything the BKs could do to prevent this effect of a clean and well-groomed female on a sexually repressed/deprived male. These effects were intensified by steady eye contact, another BK practice, during which time pupils mutually dilate, and augmented by a warm smile, attractive white teeth ... I wonder if the women knew that I was practically putty in their hands?? I think they did.

Which, frankly, made me want to go shred all my saris ... ... having felt it was the equivalent of wearing a habit before!

Thanks to those who've said it's good to see a BK posting on here again. It aint easy, but I feel like I need to. Also it makes me check how deep my beliefs are, whether I am just doing stuff for the sake of it, and what I really understand. So thank you!

ex-l, do you have any evidence for saying that Brahma Baba was influenced by Christianity? I wasn't saying that. What I do feel is that the current regime in the West has lost the love and power with which BB conveyed his and Shiva Baba's teachings, and in its place applied fear and judgementalism.

I think that these behaviour systems do come from Bhakti; Christianity is the one I am familiar with but I am sure it is prevalant in other religious beliefs too. For me, unless I experience God as he is speaking to me through the Murli, I will experience all the "body conscious" emotions of fear, guilt, judgement etc. I know that if I am feeling that, I am not soul-concious because Shiv Baba doesnt have any of those feelings towards me. And if there is any of BBs less then perfect stuff floating round in there, I do not bother with it.

Basically, I refuse to do anything out of guilt or fear in my Brahmin life; or else I might as well go and be a fundamentalist Christian ... I choose my Brahmin life for love and freedom, but I am aware I am in a minority ... Many bring, as Joel says, systems of ego, power and status into the process. However, please be aware there are other Brahmins out there who are think like this but there may be various reasons why they arent posting here.

Would it not be a wonderful thing if the BKWSU could moderate the 'it can only be this way' teachings, and incorporate a system where people with commitments, people without commitments, people with families, everyone, could find a place in the belief system and gain benefit and become more spiritual and closer to God, a far less 'them and us' mentality ... but then I guess it would no longer be true BK then would it?

Di, this, believe it or not is what it is meant to be! It is bad interpretation which has made people feel awkward! Which is not what Shiv Baba or Brahma Baba ever created. I was listening in Madhuban to a very senior Indian teacher talk out about her experiences of coming into knowledge just after getting married. She went to see BB because her mother-in-law was a regular student at the centre. He was visiting their centre. And basically, he was very sweet to her and gave her wedding presents.

She wasnt interested in knowledge or following the lifestyle. She attended the centre again and he invited her to visit Mount Abu in the summer (even though at that time she hadn't taken the course and was living her married life) and she and her husband came to stay. He showed them all the sites of Mount Abu and made sure they had a comfortable stay.

When they were leaving, he was waving his hanky in farewell to them and they saw that he had tears of love in his eyes. It was from that moment that they felt a real connection, and when they returned home started doing service, without ever having had the full course! Basically, he didnt judge her or pressure her or her husband. His attitude was love and acceptance. Unfortunatly, this 'us and them' attitude has arisen in the centres which has nothing to do with soul-conciousness or the recognition of "all souls as our Brothers on their own path". I am very sorry that you have had this experience and believe me, this is not "true BK", and it makes me frustrated that things have moved this far away from their original essence.

In the BKWSU, propagated by the virgin crones within the leadership we have; men filled solely with sexual intent, portrayed as insensitive rapacious beasts, sex as an equal or greater crime than murders, the penis symbolized by knives or swords stabbing and wounding the honorable, innocent, pure goddesses of women. Have any of these Indian or BK women ever actually enjoyed sex or even affection?

ex-l, ummm, where are your quotes or evidence for this. I never heard men portrayed as sexual beasts within the BKs! And if you are asking, yes, I have enjoyed sex and affection and I choose my connection with S.B. Next?

Just because you choose to be celibate doesn't mean you have to try and find reasons to say sex is bad!!! I know sex is said to be bad in the Murlis, I'd rather you just repeat what you believe in than try and justify it morally. It's just daft. I mean, none of us would be here to even have this discussion if it wasn't for sex.

Mr Green, I would agree with that. It is a choice. Be happy with what choices you have made; that's taking responsibility. That's real freedom. Trying to blame your choices on others produces mental slavery and the wonderful victim culture now prevalent where everyone and their donkey thinks that suing someone is the path to happiness.

God/Supreme Soul/Shiv Baba, however you want to cut it, is unlimited love. And will never stop loving you whether you choose celibacy, or choose to have a family, or choose to be wildly sexually active. My view is that if you choose to judge yourself because you have a relationship, and also if your mind is consumed by that relationship, these are the things that create a barrier in your mind between you and God; not that God withdraws love. You judge yourself or your attention is diverted from God. This is the "punishment" talked about in the Murlis, not from any external source but purely internally generated.

Sorry this post jumps about. There have been many interesting points raised and I was trying to respond to as many as I could.

ex-l, do you have any evidence for saying that Brahma Baba was influenced by Christianity? I wasn't saying that. What I do feel is that the current regime in the West has lost the love and power with which Brahma Baba conveyed his and Shiva Baba's teachings, and in its place applied fear and judgementalism.

Very briefly right now as I have other responsibilities right now.

"Evidence" ... it is a composition of a number of factors. I know what the party-line is, i.e. Shiva and the BKWSU have no influence, they are the ones that influence all others for hte next Kalpa. I think that it is ridiculous, contradictory nonsense from the start to the end of the BKWSU. Where it was the influences of the Bhaibund on Kirpalanis or Brian Bacon as the current Chariot of Shiva licensing mamagement courses to the senior Sisters, Lekhraj Kirpalani/BB and the BKWSU is awash with external influences.

In no particular order,

• the academics; especially Lawrence Babbs who actually "signed up" and lived with the BKs in the 70s but went much than any other academic - or BK - has done by actually speaking to the contemporaries of the original BKs. Obviously many of them have died/are dying off now and so that avenue is closed. Babbs is also expert in SE Asian religions in general and the Vallabhacharya sect of which Kripalani was a member specifically, which is a useful reference point. Dr John Walliss also gets a good mention.
• the Senior Sisters; who when I asked them about influence onto the Murlis from other religions answered that when members of other religions came along, BapDada started to address their questions and incorporate elements of their teachings, e.g. Sikhism probably has a greater influence than Christianity.
• general historical knowledge; of India at that time and the British influence India
• specific historical knowledge; of the early days of Om Mandli that I am research right now from original documents the BKWSU have kept unspoken, hidden or destroyed.
• basic psychological profiling; more of which I would like to write about later ... the Anglicised Lekhraj Kirpalani sat in his chair wearing a fine suit.

The party-line vis-a-vis Christ is that he is a "special soul" and that Shiva has "special love for him and his message".

Well, that theory is a bit weak because Shiva did not exist in the BKWSU philosophy until after 1950. Add to that Virendra Dev Dixit/PBK's analysis of Lekhraj Kirpalani indiscriminate child-like character, which I actually think is close to the mark. Whatever part the PBKs have to play in this whole thing, one has to respect Virendra Dev Dixit for his role as a Yagya historian and philosopher. To me, Virendra Dev Dixit is a bit like the David Irvine of the BK World; someone much reviled and traumatised by it but perhaps actually quite brave and right in some of his assumptions. Especially his factual discoveries, he is a great BK philosopher outside of the BK mould [sister in charge]. It was, for example, Virendra Dev Dixit that claimed Lekhraj Kirpalani was not 60 when he became a medium (as said in the Murlis).

Virendra Dev Dixit was right, the BKWSU have falsified Lekhraj Kirpalani age ... and I think we will discover much of the early period, his alleged visions etc

And so with regards Christianity, I think with a little honesty on behalf of the powers that be we will discover Lekhraj Kirpalani was heavily influenced by some Christian influence (just as he was by Mickey Mouse and going to see Bollywood movies).

Yes, you are quite right Mr Green; it was that, aherm, 'interesting' soul Joel who said

To speak frankly, seeing an attractive woman in a sari - even in BK regulation white - was a turn-on, and daily "hazard" of my BK life.

You rang?

No need to shred your saris! I was telling stories of more than 10 years ago. I am sure that there are no longer any repressed sari-mad Brothers, who hide their smoldering inner passions and outwardly show themselves as docile God-loving cooperative males.

If you'd asked me at the time, I would have told you I wasn't repressed, that I only had love for one. Perhaps, if you had interviewed me carefully, if you'd asked the right questions, I would have admitted that Maya was still powerful. That is coded language among BKs that actually shouts, "Yes I still feel like a man, and this person definitely appeals to me as a woman." Or vice versa for Sisters, or diagonally, for people attracted to the same gender.

If you meet a BK Brother who has no energy, no charisma, pliant, lackadaisical, is endlessly accepting, you can guess that he given up the power the accompanies his identity as a sexual being. Generally, if a person glows, and others find that person attractive, I would suggest that the person's sexuality is alive, can be alive even though the person may be celibate.

BK do attempt to channel their sexual energy in spiritual directions. Even when (and especially when) they succeed, this energy still constitutes and attractive part of their character. BK face this duality of becoming attractive to others on one level, and of transcending their sexual attractions on another level.

Real shaktis are supposed to strike down the lions of sex lust with their weapons of knowledge and Yoga. Real shaktis who are 'serviceable' also attract people to the group with the refined forms of their sexual magnetism. Their romantic love of one reveals them to be romantic souls. They are dramatic, affectionate, human.

Some special service instruments have both an attractive affectionate charismatic side, as well as a rigid, results-oriented authoritarian side. This duality can be crazy-making for people who allow themselves to be maniplated by such individuals.

Yudishtra, you are a breath of fresh air. A BK able to actually discuss spiritual matters like an adult without lording it over others!!!! Especially those who were once BKs and know the craic completely ...

Good on ya.

Yudishtra, you are a breath of fresh air. A BK able to actually discuss spiritual matters like an adult without lording it over others!!!! Especially those who were once BKs and know the craic completely ... Good on ya.

I agree.

Yes, you are quite right Mr Green; it was that, aherm, 'interesting' soul Joel who said that

'Interesting', thanks I'll take that as a compliment. I've heard BK instrument souls call people 'interesting' in a sort of backhand praise meaning the person is creative and expresses themself vigorously, however outside conventional BK lines. 'Interesting' usually means the person might be nice to know, funny etc., but not suitable material for pukka or inner-circle BKs.

'Interesting', thanks I'll take that as a compliment. I've heard BK instrument souls call people 'interesting' in a sort of backhand praise meaning the person is creative and expresses themself vigorously, however outside conventional BK lines. 'Interesting' usually means the person might be nice to know, funny etc., but not suitable material for pukka or inner-circle BKs.

Heym thanks guys! I really appreciate that coming from you because I know you do not say these things for the sake of it! Especially as I have been afraid of getting crucified on here because I do not have any high falutin' intellectual arguments to back up what my heart tells me is true.

And Joel, I have a strange sense of humour which I havent "purified" yet as it keeps me sane ... I was going to put MCP instead of interesting (if you need a translation tell me) but I thought that was a little strong ... and I guess you were only trying to be honest. As I said, its my remnant feminist sanskars coming out and wanting to kick ass.

ex-l, I appreciate your response to my query. I hear what you are saying about possible sources of influence, despite my belief that it is Shiv Baba who is speaking through Brahma Baba (even if he was too much of a thick skulled buddhu to realise this until they got to Pandav Bhavan ...) But I was thinking more of evidence in the Murlis that shows influence from Christian doctrines. Because even on the lust stuff, its different to Christianity and other beliefs, isnt it? Christianity doesnt advocate celibacy but sex within marriage. Sanyassis (sp?) say women are the gateway to hell apparantly. Baba is saying that lust for either sex is the greatest enemy to soul-conciousness and God consciousness.

I do not know much about Veerendra Dev Dixits historical works or his comments on Brahma Baba, are they on this site?

and Joel; I have a strange sense of humour which I havnt "purified" yet as it keeps me sane... I was going to put MCP instead of interesting (if you need a translation tell me) but I thought that was a little strong.. and I guess you were only trying to be honest. As I said; its my remnant feminist sanskars coming out and wanting to kick ass.

Yudhishtra, you would kick my ass because I (a man) admit to having experienced ten years ago an undercurrent of attraction to women (but not men??!) at a holy ashram?

On a side note, I used to hang out with radical lesbian feminists since a lot of those types were into Aikido (as I was) at the time. I like feminists (consider myself a feminist) just not fond of humorless, angry feminists. You said you have a sense of humor ...

Yudhishtra, you would kick my ass because I (a man) admit to having experienced ten years ago an undercurrent of attraction to women (but not men??!) at a holy ashram?

I guess I felt kind of " uck - jeez, is that whats going on in people's heads" which I will admit is neither reasonable, spiritual, detached or loving, and is entirely to do with my stuff. I guess I am not a shakti yet. My way of dealing with it, because my male and female sides aint balanced yet is to lash out. I am sorry.

On a side note, I used to hang out with radical lesbian feminists since a lot of those types were into Aikido (as I was) at the time. I like feminists (consider myself a feminist) just not fond of humorless angry feminists. You said you have a sense of humor ...

I have a very dead-pan sense of humour. Hey ho, I'll try and be more understandable and less oblique in future.

I guess I felt kind of " uck - jeez, is that whats going on in people's heads" which I will admit is neither reasonable, spiritual, detached or loving, and is entirely to do with my stuff. I guess I am not a shakti yet. My way of dealing with it, because my male and female sides aint balanced yet is to lash out. I am sorry ... I have a very dead-pan sense of humour. Hey ho, I'll try and be more understandable and less oblique in future.

Uck-jeez and MCP are perfectly understandable, what I wonder is what specifically
triggers them off for you about what I said?

You have to understand Yude, that this was a secret undercurrent that I did not allow myself to acknowledge at the time. I crunched and pinched myself about in ways that really deeply hurt me, and that I can still feel the hurt now. The way I hurt myself in reaction caused the injury, not the innocent attraction of a man to the mysterious.

The attraction is not just of men, either. Womynkind also predominately stare longer at advertising photographs of women. Women note the clothing that other women wear.

It's not necessarily body conscious either. The self can invest in one's choice of clothes. To recover myself by surrounding myself with colors and fabrics of clothing I like. This was a huge step after years of wearing white pajamas all the time.

I'd also like you to understand that the undercurrent of attraction does not preclude a normal relationship. Most men understand this intuitively, so it is easier for me to talk about this subject with a man. To a womyn, it's "Oh the horror, he's attracted to my breasts, or other breasts, like a mouse scrabbing for a bit of cheese."

Yes, for us men, the challenge is to remain in contact with ourselves, containing the desire to merge with the other. To be able to live with the moment, rather than always being conscious of some other desired outcome.

I'd like to turn this around to a view closer to the conventional BK angle. There is a sparkle with the people we're comfortable, free, happy, creative with. We sparkle with them. It is the magic of relationship that makes life. Of course, our ability to relate is only as good as our ability to listen to and express ourselves. Anything that can support this is surely spiritual. Using the sword of knowledge to cut your limbs into bloody stumps for the wrong reasons ... well we did that, and that's why we're sensitive about confining ourselves because of something The Knowledge says.

Several ex-BK men have written on the subject of male emasculation among the BKs. Part of this occurs, I believe, by shaming them for their sex drive. I am not saying that the shaming is built into The Knowledge (Sakar Baba certainly uses threatening and inflammatory language) but that the violence of male emasculation is as injurious as the sex lust that emasculation is meant to cure. Castration. The word is frightening and ugly. That's what men risk in giving themselves to God through the organization of the BKWSU. The safest, peaceful path becomes something ominous for some.

The shaming words Baba abuses men with are these: if you accept and express your sex drive, your throat will choke with shame, you will never be able to speak your truth again.

I am saying this for the first time. Baba taught some things that were wrong, and whatever he might have intended, have turned out hurtful, damaging for many. Some benefit, others are hurt. Enough time has passed for many to see that hurt has taken and still takes place. Surely the Seniors must be aware that not everyone "responds well" to the BK lifestyle. I don't think the BKs can heal until they can admit, we were wrong by the way we were absolutist about purity, cutting away much of the norishment of life in the process, shaming and emasculating.

There is thread about touching and holding. What would you like to be, a BK or an otter? The famous YouTube otters.

Its less than 2 minutes. Watch it towards the end.

The shaming words Baba abuses men with are these: if you accept and express your sex drive, your throat will choke with shame, you will never be able to speak your truth again.

I am saying this for the first time. Baba taught some things that were wrong, and whatever he might have intended, have turned out hurtful, damaging for many. Some benefit, others are hurt. Enough time has passed for many to see that hurt has taken and still takes place. Surely the Seniors must be aware that not everyone "responds well" to the BK lifestyle. I don't think the BKs can heal until they can admit, we were wrong by the way we were absolutist about purity, cutting away much of the norishment of life in the process, shaming and emasculating.

Trouble is the BK 'instruments' (of torture) willingly use the line, "some bricks break in the kiln" or "it's just not in their fortune" ... that sort of dismissive sh*te.

There is thread about touching and holding. What would you like to be, a BK or an otter?

I'd rather have a beaver . May the lord have forgiveness.

Trouble is the BK 'instruments' (of torture) willingly use the line, "some bricks break in the kiln" or it's just not in their fortune ... that sort of dismissive sh*te.

Yes, now that I think of that -- I heard those words, too -- definitely spooky. Does not sound like Duty of Care.

Several ex-BK men have written on the subject of male emasculation among the BKs. Part of this occurs, I believe, by shaming them for their sex drive. I am not saying that the shaming is built into The Knowledge (Sakar Baba certainly uses threatening and inflammatory language) but that the violence of male emasculation is as injurious as the sex lust that emasculation is meant to cure. Castration. The word is frightening and ugly. That's what men risk in giving themselves to God through the organization of the BKWSU. The safest, peaceful path becomes something ominous for some.

So have some academics noted the feminism and emasculation, Julia Howell being one but I think there was a psychologist too. Let us be clear, the femine can be equally or more greatly destructive than the masculine. It just operates in different realms mostly; generally the personal and inter-personal where the BKWSU are. The Karankaravanhar element of the world. I'd like to pick this up issue up and kick it into another related field too.

Sex or let us call it "libido", manifests itself, as Freud, Alder and Jung illustrated, not just in emission and fornication for both genders but as free creative energy. Libido within an individual is their life force expressing itself positively through sport, arts, professional achievement, competition and status. Not just the sexual aspect of libido is crushed but also artistic expression, professional success in careers, general achievement by the limited vision of the ballbreakers within the BKWSU. All positive aspects are stripped away both sexes and the emphasis was placed on conformity to their corporate image.

When I was young, I had a stronger than average libido ... and I do not mean that on a purely sexual level ... I had a capacity to conceive and generate. It was sheer and utter hell to manage, or rather kill it off and supress it, within the contraints of the limited minded BKWSU. I did it intitially, as most women do, by overeating and putting on an uncomfortable amounts of weight. No specific "yogic" management skills were taught, or even the issue acknowledged. Reward was based on conformity to the mediocre and unimaginative norm. The realm of permitted expression and achievement was so narrow and rigidly controlled by Sister mainly that quite frankly had very limited vision and capacity.

Yes, I think part of their Duty of Care would be to monitor the BK Harpies and the "facial hair haters"

Trouble is the BK 'instruments' (of torture) willingly use the line, "some bricks break in the kiln" or it's just not in their fortune ... that sort of dismissive sh*te.

Yes ... too right ... and if one or some bricks go off altogether they can blow up the entire damned kiln. Do we have our sights set squarely?

Uck-jeez and MCP are perfectly understandable, what I wonder is what specifically triggers them off for you about what I said?

I did read all of your post, and thanks for the good points raised. I can understand to an extent what you are saying though, obviously, I've never been through that angle, so I cannot understand totally. I think I have to say my triggers go way back pre-gyan to an incident of abuse that I think has still left me with some residual feelings of being responsible for attracting it when I was not, because thats the message I got from the perp. We all bring to Gyan our various bags and baggages and that's amongst mine. Sorry for dumping it on you and thanks for allowing me to see thats what I was doing.

Basically, you can use anything in the Murli to beat yourself up with if you want. Personally, I take the stuff I find useful and anything else I see that either I am not in the right head space or that was BB on one of his pre-perfect rants. I tend to focus on the Gyan stuff. Like with DJ. Her classes this year were 60% useful, 40% going off on her own rant about BKs fashion habits. Unless you watch what you eat and get discerning, you get food poisoning. I know this is not a popular way of seeing things amongst BKs but I have found that it has allowed me to keep my connection with Shiva Baba despite the inconsistencies of his instruments.