Sex, Sexuality and Relationships within the BKWSU or PBKs

I think you lot need to find a Motel or something.

Incidentally, why was the pope having a go at Mohamad? (Is it another thread or been covered). Talk about the pot calling the kettle black?

I think you lot need to find a Motel or something. Incidentally, why was the pope having a go at Mohamad? (Is it another thread or been covered). Talk about the pot calling the kettle black?

The early popes were pretty indulgent, so they say.

Beautiful post Yudhishtira,

I was celibate for many, many years before meeting my present partner. Part of the reasons were moral, ethical, wanting time for myself to be myself, self growth and a whole heap of others. And I found it a very rewarding time, plus very safe. I had friends and family who would pressure me to 'find' someone, they were so worried about me and my future life. I was extremely happy. I was never, ever lonely. I did not need to be with anyone. I could limit how much I gave of myself and be as involved or as detached as I chose. It left me with a freedom and peace of mind to follow the paths I chose. To become involved with someone was a very deep decision. I loved being single and not having the responsibilities.

So I am not anti-celibacy, except in certain situations where the decision to do so directly impacts on another and to make that decision without having enough regard to discuss it with the other person first. To me, and to many men and women (especially as we mature), sex is more about relationships, having a meaningful connection with someone. Not based on hollywood hype unrealistic love stories. To others we are just talking about physical sex. 2 very different subjects.

I made a very conscious decision and ended up choosing to be in a relationship (and so did he) and with that comes responsibilities and commitment. It was a decision that took a great deal of thinking about and soul searching. I agree with many of Ex-I's points and would like to thank him for expanding on the issues. (Though if I may humbly suggest it would be helpful to keep in mind though there are some individuals here in a great deal of pain and suffering due to the BK doctine and are bruised and fragile and not wanting to deal with confrontation or what appears to be harsh critism. It is difficult to open up as it is on such a personal level).

I have said in the past, probably not clearly enough, there is nothing wrong with being a Yogi. Much respect and admiration to be given to them. I don't have a problem with that. The things I do have a problem about is exactly the things Ex-I has said what is wrong and the indiscriminate recruitment of people who cannot possibly attain that position. It is not supposed to cause sorrow.

Would it not be a wonderful thing if the BKWSU could moderate the 'it can only be this way' teachings, and incorporate a system where people with commitments, people without commitments, people with families, everyone, could find a place in the belief system and gain benefit and become more spiritual and closer to God, a far less 'them and us' mentality ... but then I guess it would no longer be true BK then would it?

There I go again, the eternal optimist

On the subject of sex, maybe if you were to think of the children who were born and abandoned out of whatever reason, or from broken divorces and seperations, etc then the view about the act of and the results of sex could change.

"Sex" is an act, whereas love is a feeling. Whether they go hand in hand is personal. Most accidents occur in the kitchen

In the BK path, as God is your only partner, then there must be celibacy. If that doesn't work for you, then you cannot be a BK, simple as that.

In the BK path, as God is your only partner, then there must be celibacy. If that doesn't work for you, then you cannot be a BK, simple as that.

I believe there are people who accept sexuality in their lives, and still listen to Murli and consider themselves Baba's excellent long-lost and now-found children. It was Brahma at that time, and the Seniors now who advocate celibacy. BapDada still advocates "purity" although he doesn't go into the purity that does exist in loving couples and between parents and children, and that we can have. That loving relationship is spoken as the reward of the future, when there will not be sexuality and no attachment to children.

Give yourself to God for this one life, and receive 21 lives in heaven, is the offer. This life is supposed to be the highest. So why deny yourself anything? Why not allow yourself to think of all that life offers as God given. It is _I_ who decide to accept.

To be born of Brahma's mouth, does tend to mean that you take it seriously when Baba warns you about sitting on the pyre of lust? Someone who has conquered guilt and conquered shame at public opinion over a loving and healthy relationship, such a person will understand that God does love her, and will give herself her own validation. Such a person might sit in class, and sleep at night in her partner's arms.

One who accepts himself doesn't have to share his secrets with the BKs. In fact, he does not keep them secret in his life, only tactfully doesn't bother the BKs by mentioning them. These realities do not sting him internally like embedded knives, or like a nail in the shoe that pokes and pokes. The endless torturous brutalizing of Dharam Raj has evaporated.
He accepts himself, She still loves the BKs, accepts them as her friends. She is mature.

There are a few like that. Anyone who wants to fully live must overcome comparing oneself to others. There is nothing more discouraging and debilitating. All the talk of status among BKs. It is all mind candy. Once one has accepted his own value, it is just so much play.

I wonder then, why is status so important among BKs? Are all those who think about status, churn about status, compulsive, comparing? Is it only Baba who talks like that to be inspiring to be loving, or are BKs status conscious? Whose stage is higher? Who gives a better experience after meditation. Who gives Gyan more effectively, grinds it into their bones? Makes others like themselves.

There is something suspect _in_this_age_ to be advocating competitiveness, if it leads to forgetting oneself. Or staring extra hard drishti at people to be more powerful. Crunching oneself to be a better yogi, or a smile for everyone. Each day practicing one of the eight powers, beginning with the mother of all, the power to withdraw.

To conclude, I do believe that there are pure people who are pure based on their loving lives, rather than whether they eat onions or meat, or sleep in their lover's or child's arms. The idea that sex and "impurity" are related, is another original sin, at least it becomes so when it is advertised among large numbers, whose lives will benefit more by learning to love.

Those who are naturals among the BKs excel. It is those who aren't naturals, who are unstable, vulnerable, dependent who are injured. The ones for whom the BKs carry a Duty of Care.

The real question I feel here is about attachment and relationships. Sex itself on its own without love, although physically satisfying, is emotionally empty ... Celibacy for me was a personal choice. I am not a victim. No one pointed a gun to my head and forced me. I decided it was what I wanted. I have continued to make that personal choice every day, in the same way I have continued to make every decision in my Brahmin life.

Dear Sister,
Welcome back. I hope you enjoyed your trip to Madhuban.

There had been a drought of posts from BKs since many days (except for a few posts from BK Sparkal). I was worrying if BKs had been directed to boycott this forum! Thanks for writing about your experiences and views regarding celibacy.

I may humbly suggest it would be helpful to keep in mind though there are some individuals here in a great deal of pain and suffering due to the BK doctine and are bruised and fragile and not wanting to deal with confrontation or what appears to be harsh criticism. It is difficult to open up as it is on such a personal level

Dear Sister,

You have rightly summed up what many silent BK/ex-BK viewers/readers of this forum may be thinking before taking the plunge into this ocean of discussion. I hope all of us would keep this in mind while posting our views on this forum.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

On the subject of sex, maybe if you were to think of the children who were born and abandoned out of whatever reason, or from broken divorces and seperations, etc then the view about the act of and the results of sex could change.

I am from a broken family Bansy and I am very glad my parents had sex or I wouldn't be here!!! I just don't understand why any of you are trying to see sex negatively or positively!!!

Just because you choose to be celibate doesn't mean you have to try and find reasons to say sex is bad!!! I know sex is said to be bad in the Murlis, I'd rather you just repeat what you believe in than try and justify it morally. It's just daft. I mean, none of us would be here to even have this discussion if it wasn't for sex. It's a bit similar to the veggie debate, or the non-smoker debate, or the etc ... just because you don't want to do it doesn't mean you have to morally justify it ...

I feel the mistake BKs have made with sex/relationships is by adopting the Christians puritanical attitude rather than just seeing the thing for what it is. Fear and judgement. The things that are strangling this organisation.

Historically, both specifically within the BKWSU and generally within India of that time, I think there are very good grounds to agree with this theory. I do not know from where but there are distinct Christian influences onto Lekhraj Kirpalani's thoughts; the alleged Christ souls himself (of whom there is more evidence to suggest that he may not actually have existed historically), the monotheism, the Millenarianism. I'd lay a bet down that Lekhraj Kirpalani was influenced by some local Christian evangelists, although I have no evidence to support this at present. Church spires dominating Pakistan’s major cities are legacies of British rule. Lekhraj Kirpalani, from his dress etc was obviously heavily Anglicised. Could he have been impressed by visits to local churches?

It was St Augustine that said, "Nothing is so powerful in drawing the spirit of a man downwards as the caresses of a woman". He also denied the heterosexual companionate marriage, arguing that, if marriage were intended for companionship, men would marry other men. The Victorian British certainly exported their sexual prudishness and hypocrisy to the overtly sensual India. But in all this discussion, and I ask time and time again, the one input we are missing is;

• what is or was the general sexual activities/enjoyment/pleasure/role of the average Indian women at the time of Lekhraj Kirpalani and through the early period of the BKWSU?

In the BKWSU, propagated by the virgin crones within the leadership we have; men filled solely with sexual intent, portrayed as insensitive rapacious beasts, sex as an equal or greater crime than murders, the penis symbolized by knives or swords stabbing and wounding the honorable, innocent, pure goddesses of women. Have any of these Indian or BK women ever actually enjoyed sex or even affection?

The early popes were pretty indulgent, so they say.

As far as the Popes go, yes, Joel is right and probably thinking of Pope Innocent the VIII. I think it might have been a ironic name.

Whilst commissioning the inquistors to squelch the power of Satan in Northern Europe, publishing the Malleus Maleficarum "A Hammer for Witches" which lead to the deaths of anything between 10,000s to millions of women, he found time to get on with squelching of his own and fathered "eight boys, and just as many girls, so that Rome might justly call him Father ... towards whom his nepotism had been as lavish as it was shameless" (Encyclopaedia Britannica). On his deathbed he was given blood transfusions from three young male children who died in the process. It corruption, especially financial and political, was endless.

Why bother judging others? ... It's all OK, it is your life ...

Actually, the reason why there is no point in judging other people - or even less in telling them what to do - is because it is a pointless waste of energy ... they are not going to listen to you anyway even if you are right.

Objectively, its not all "OK" (although granted we have not yet sat down and worked out which bits are and are not). Objectively what ever you chose to do personally effects us as the society in which you care contained. As with our rights to not have to ingest passive smoking or the negative effects of unseen pollution; society has a right not to inject the effects of passive sexing and is certainly effected by sexual pollution, e.g. extreme manga leading to horrific sexual attacks.

If society is canted out of order by, say, an excess of pornography then it is other individuals than just the producers and consumers that are effected. Sex, sexual activity, is both a commodity and an industry who production requires energy and resources, has by-products and creates waste. These require analysis and management.

We exist upon a finite planet with finite resources onto which other activities also have conflicting demands on the atmosphere. We cant have everything we want and what you want cuts into what I might have.

Would it not be a wonderful thing if the BKWSU could moderate the 'it can only be this way' teachings, and incorporate a system where people with commitments, people without commitments, people with families, everyone, could find a place in the belief system and gain benefit and become more spiritual and closer to God, a far less 'them and us' mentality ... but then I guess it would no longer be true BK then would it?

No, not at all and we would not want that. Indeed, they are already - hypocritically and dishonestly - attempting to.

The problem is their power lust for power and numbers ... more followers ... more subjects ... more status in the Golden Age achievable through serving (read exploit) the ignorant us ... more money ... more property. To achieve and sustain this they are hiding the truth of their beliefs and practises. My suggestion is that what we want is absolute, upfront honesty from them ... and a massive Duty of Care policy that would protect family as in your case.

Put simply, an individual like your partner should not be allowed to engage on the BK path and certainly not supported - as they do - to renounce his life commitment and responsibilities. The BKWSU should not be allowed to interfere with and eat up the lives of individuals that are not free to commit social and familial suicide to die alive.

You have rightly summed up what many silent BK/ex-BK viewers/readers of this forum may be thinking before taking the plunge into this ocean of discussion. I hope all of us would keep this in mind while posting our views on this forum.

I agree with you here Arjun and Di. I think some of the replies to your posts were overly intimidating. I am sure that this makes many people who would otherwise post here think twice before doing so.

to me, my relationship with Shiva Baba is deeply sustaining.

Welcome back to the forum Yudhishtira. It is good to see a BK posting here again. I quote the above from your post because it is not the first time I have heard a BK Sister say exactly this same thing, and believed it. Also your saying that what you would want from a man would be impossible for any human being to provide is something I have heard before. Obviously your life suits you right now. I hope you will continue to converse with us.

In the BK path, as God is your only partner, then there must be celibacy. If that doesn't work for you, then you cannot be a BK, simple as that.

Bansy, how many BKs pass?

OK, in BK terms according to Murli, how many pass Dharamraj with no punishment?

how many BKs pass?

To respond to your query John, I do not know about others. In the meantime, every man/woman/soul for itself it seems

To respond to the thread in general, I think sex is a personal choice, BK or not BK. In BK life, there is no sex. If you want sex, you cannot be a BK. Surely you all knew this when you joined the BKs. If you knew that sex was permissible in the BKs when you started out, would you have held it to with such esteem. I think this is a message that should come with a warning when one thinks of joining the BKWSU, but I reckon it did as part of Shrimat when it was put more mildly as "be celibate" rather than "do not fornicate".

As Mr Green puts it, its like the non-smoker debate, you can put the warning on the pack of cigarettes but people still smoke.

I agree with Yudhistra in that sex is not the only thing in life and in relationships. It is up to you to make it so if you wish. If BKs have sex when they are BKs then it is up to them. I am the least to be bothered about them. It will be their partners who would be.

To respond to your query John, I do not know about others. In the meantime, every man/woman/soul for itself it seems

What I am saying is very few pass, I believe it is just eight. So what about the others, are they to give up because they don't become perfect?

I think there is something to be said for maturing in spirituality. In that sense a person can become rather than just 'be' the perfect example from day one. By trying to be the perfect BK model from day one, or at an early BK age, can lead to stress later on and guilt for not being able to fulfil the requirements. Are 2500 years of sanskars to disappear overnight?

If BKs have sex when they are BKs then it is up to them. I am the least to be bothered about it. It will be their partners who should be.

Especially if it is not their partners that they are having sex with ...

What I am saying is very few pass, I believe it is just eight. So what about the others, are they to give up because they don't become perfect?

You make a very, very pertinent and practical point here, John.

A large part of the self-referring madness of the BK experience is that one might be "One of the 8" ... or be inspired to the become one of the 108 ... the juicy carrot of status and reward is dangled before the donkeys of the drugged up 'Honeymoon Period'. Under that circumstant, all sort of indoctrination, thought reform and mental programming take place regards relationships.

What concerns me, over and over again, is that the BKWSU has always thrived and enjoyed a Millenarianist concept where the practical matters of the future are unimportant because Destruction is just around the corner. Under this influence individuals have been encouraged to commit social suicide.

• Has or is the BKWSU putting into place some basic protect for individuals that have given up establishing a family to look after themselves in their old age?

It fine for the rich and in the Western world, where there is wealth and some kind of welfare/pension system. Its a massively exploitative problem in the developing nations where there is none.

I bet they just chuck them out and send them back to their lokiks ... and what of ex-BKs, especially women, that gave 10/15/20 of their sexually productive years?

Just because you choose to be celibate doesn't mean you have to try and find reasons to say sex is bad!!!

Mae West once said something like: "When sex is good its wonderful but when its bad its still pretty good too ..."

xxxxx

This question came up in ths thread:

Has or is the BKWSU putting into place some basic protect for individuals that have given up establishing a family to look after themselves in their old age?

I was told that I did not need a pension plan or old age insurance, because Destruction would have happened before I got much older ...