I wanted to pick up on a point andrey makes elsewhere. I think this probably should go in the Psychic dimension thread ultimately.
What is the correct word for what the spirit called Shiva, or BapDada, allegedly does? In English we have the following words to use; channelling, possession, overshadowing, mediumship and from the BK "divine vision" or "divine insight". And I note here that the BKWSU are apparently at the moment training up some BK Sisters to become mediums for the spirit/spirits BapDada in case the current medium Gulzar dies. (Interesting they would not chose someone like Jayanti to do the job?)
Personally, I have a problem with "absolutely faith" in BK version of The Knowledge. We are missing the key links in the BKWSU history as to when Shiva eventually "came out" and the Brahma-kumaris started promoting him post-1950. Surely such a historic event must be noted somewhere or logged in the minds of the leadership? We have also been lied to and misled, and so I cannot trust entirely without evidence.
What is going on when Shiva/BapDada works through the children, e.g. where he says that he "comes into one of the children and speak the Murli very well"? That I would guess is "overshadowing".
Who or what was being channelled or going on when the children went into trance for days at a time in the beginning and deity forms emerged? That could be "just" divine visions granted as the fruit of Bhakti ... but how? Or, at a push, it could have been spirit possession.
We note that Lekhraj Kirpalani obviously did not know what was going on FOR A LONG TIME and had a hard time coming to terms with it. That to me would class the "Shiva" entrance as a type of possession but that he was originally called a "medium". Yet where trance medium Gulzar is concerned, an entirely different form of mediumship is going on where the spirit is enslaved or doing deals with the BKWSU as to when to come and go.
Has anyone ever had a detailed account of the discussions that go on and why Shiva/BapDada limit themselves in such a way? (And how they know what time and day it is in the Subtle Regions). We know the kiddies version, but what is really going on?
Of course, the BKWSU hides the more psychic of freaky elements to outsiders. For me, they shy away from possession because of its negative connotations and they look snobbishly down at channelling because their god is the highest god ... etc. They do not want to appear common. But for me, Shiva/BapDada are engaged in possession, channelling and overshadowing.
Although I do not warm to the Vishnu Party's way of behaving, I find their theory that the BKWSU is dealing with many spirits, including dead members, reasonable enough. it goes along with Gyan. We also had a much earlier post where some other mystic was quoted considering that the Shiva things was actually some spirit from a far off planet, that it was benign but that it had got reality wrong.
If I am honest, at present, I find those kind of theories (including the obvious superior abilities) far more likely and acceptable ... along with a manipulation of the BK collective energies by the channelled entities. Because of all the damage their do to relationships and the sort of people they chose as their representatives, I am not 100% on what their intent is.
Indeed the whole "Brahma is God" episode, little 15 or 20 year mistake, would encourage me that Shiva was actually some kind of Luciferic influence, as defined Rudolf Steiner, i.e. encouraging the Luciferic traits of;
What is the correct word for what the spirit called Shiva, or BapDada, allegedly does? In English we have the following words to use; channelling, possession, overshadowing, mediumship and from the BK "divine vision" or "divine insight". And I note here that the BKWSU are apparently at the moment training up some BK Sisters to become mediums for the spirit/spirits BapDada in case the current medium Gulzar dies. (Interesting they would not chose someone like Jayanti to do the job?)
Personally, I have a problem with "absolutely faith" in BK version of The Knowledge. We are missing the key links in the BKWSU history as to when Shiva eventually "came out" and the Brahma-kumaris started promoting him post-1950. Surely such a historic event must be noted somewhere or logged in the minds of the leadership? We have also been lied to and misled, and so I cannot trust entirely without evidence.
What is going on when Shiva/BapDada works through the children, e.g. where he says that he "comes into one of the children and speak the Murli very well"? That I would guess is "overshadowing".
Who or what was being channelled or going on when the children went into trance for days at a time in the beginning and deity forms emerged? That could be "just" divine visions granted as the fruit of Bhakti ... but how? Or, at a push, it could have been spirit possession.
We note that Lekhraj Kirpalani obviously did not know what was going on FOR A LONG TIME and had a hard time coming to terms with it. That to me would class the "Shiva" entrance as a type of possession but that he was originally called a "medium". Yet where trance medium Gulzar is concerned, an entirely different form of mediumship is going on where the spirit is enslaved or doing deals with the BKWSU as to when to come and go.
Has anyone ever had a detailed account of the discussions that go on and why Shiva/BapDada limit themselves in such a way? (And how they know what time and day it is in the Subtle Regions). We know the kiddies version, but what is really going on?
andrey wrote:Here it states in a definite way that he comes and speaks himself. It is different to channeling.
In chanelling there is one chanelled entity then there can be many channels. Then whenever the channel wishes he channels, but here there is no importance of the will of the soul whose body it is. He comes at his own will and even the one whom the body belongs to, He does not understand anything at that time. It is said he, "understands later that such points I did not know". It is said that if you look at, it will just seem like an elder person speaking. There is no change in face, voice. For example with Baba Veerendra Dev Dixit he just elevates the intellect to enable churning to takes place. The Supreme Father Shiva does not have to churn himself.
In chanelling there is one chanelled entity then there can be many channels. Then whenever the channel wishes he channels, but here there is no importance of the will of the soul whose body it is.
ex-l wrote:Then it is a sort of possession then.
You contradict yourself because it is argued elsewhere that Shiva is entering into many channels; Mata, Ram, the young girl of the Golden Circle, Dada Lekhraj (Gulzar) and Veerendra Dev Dixit. It is also recorded during his life and after Dada Lekhraj died Shiv allegedly appeared in other mediums. And now other mediums are being trained up in the BKWSU.
I don't know why the BKs and PBKs are so freaked out about the words "channelling" or "possession". What else could it be? What is the word for it? if it is not "channelling", "possession" or mediumship, then it is a kind of "channelling" or "possession" or mediumships. I have known mediums that were not in control of their spirit guides. It is quite common.
andrey wrote:No, no it is not possession, because it is not a normal soul. A normal soul of a human being is used to possess a body, but this soul never ever has a body, so when he comes freedom comes.
Of course, the BKWSU hides the more psychic of freaky elements to outsiders. For me, they shy away from possession because of its negative connotations and they look snobbishly down at channelling because their god is the highest god ... etc. They do not want to appear common. But for me, Shiva/BapDada are engaged in possession, channelling and overshadowing.
Although I do not warm to the Vishnu Party's way of behaving, I find their theory that the BKWSU is dealing with many spirits, including dead members, reasonable enough. it goes along with Gyan. We also had a much earlier post where some other mystic was quoted considering that the Shiva things was actually some spirit from a far off planet, that it was benign but that it had got reality wrong.
If I am honest, at present, I find those kind of theories (including the obvious superior abilities) far more likely and acceptable ... along with a manipulation of the BK collective energies by the channelled entities. Because of all the damage their do to relationships and the sort of people they chose as their representatives, I am not 100% on what their intent is.
Indeed the whole "Brahma is God" episode, little 15 or 20 year mistake, would encourage me that Shiva was actually some kind of Luciferic influence, as defined Rudolf Steiner, i.e. encouraging the Luciferic traits of;
- frenzy, hyperactivity, unification/generalization, one language, gnosis/speaking and thinking, qualitative, fantasy/illusion/superstition, spirit-permeated cosmology, unified vision [United Nations], flexibility, airy, the high flight of Icarus, pagan wisdom.