XBK Chat (unofficial archive)

Atma · Joined: 26 Feb 2004 Posts: 98

I would like to open a critical discussion of "the knowledge" - to go into all the contradictions, inconsistencies and inadequacies we perceive in it. Some issues have already been raised - eg the dinosaurs etc. Under this topic, we can cover a wider range of "objections" - and go into greater depth. I am pressed for time at the moment, so I will return to continue this. Feel free to share your thoughts under this heading.

Atma · Joined: 26 Feb 2004 Posts: 98

Let me just address one issue. In BK "knowledge" it states that, after the Deity religion, Islam is the oldest religion. Buddhism and Christianity come later in the cycle. But this is clearly not so. Islam began with the Prophet Muhammad (on whom be peace). Yet, in several murlis it is stated that, after the fall of the deities, the pure souls of Islam descend from paramdham (the soul world) and start playing their parts. How can this be?

Of course, the patriarch Abraham (Ibrahim) is regarded as the father figure by Jews, Christians and Muslims....but it cannot be said that he founded Islam...or that Islam was practiced in his time, or even shortly after his time. He is the one who is regarded as firmly establishing belief in one God (monotheism) in the Middle East, which later spread to the West, via Christianity. But he cannot be said to be the founder or prophet soul of Islam. That person is Muhammad (OWBP) who came much later in history. In short, there was no Islam before Muhammad (OWBP). The BKs do show this (ie Muhammad as the founder / originator of Islam) in their kalpa tree.....but the murli contradicts this when it talks about "Islam" as the second oldest religion and and "Muslims" playing a role just after the collapse of the Silver Age (Treta Yug).

This, to my mind, is one of several contradictions in "the knowledge".

gyaniwasi · Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167

Not necessarily so Atma. We should distinguish between the meaning of the word Islamand its religious culture. At school, we were taught that Islam means "submission to the will of God". Abraham demonstrated this when he was willing to sacrifice his son Isaac at God's command. Both the later Christianity and Islam had "seed souls" who demonstrated similar obedience. I guess we can say then that Islam in essence was 'founded' by Abraham (a Brahman we were told?) while the religious culture of Islam was founded by Mohammed (on whom be Peace). There is also the episode of Christ in the Garden of Gethsemene - recently portrayed in Mel Gibson's "Passion of Christ" - and then there was Mohammed's (OWBP) submission to the will of God through the angel Gabriel. The murli is therefore not inaccurate - within the framework of the knowledge - when it says that Islam followed the deity religion. If it mentioned "Muslims" in that period then that could have been a bit of "political spin" on the part Brahma Baba. Remember that in some versions we were reminded that sometimes Brahma also spoke or he sometimes conversed with Shiva.

Nevertheless, I imagine one may argue that 'God' would not allow such inaccuracies to go unnoticed. On the other hand, we have seen him make exceptions - like advising the women in the early days of domestic violence to submit to their husbands' (sexual) demands to avoid conflict but to do so in remembrance! Ah well .... compassion?
_________________
"Those were the days my friend ...."

Guest · Posted: Mon May 31, 2004 7:14 am Post subject:

Dear Gyanivasi,
Baba may have advised some married women facing domestic (sexual) violence as quoted by you. But you have only presented one aspect of the murli. This advice is only for those meak women who cannot raise in revolt against the sexual abuse by their husbands. Baba has said in murlis that if a woman wishes to remain pure she can do so by remaining independent, if the husband does not cooperate, by washing clothes or utensils in others houses, i.e. by working as a maid servant , rather than submit to the lust of their husbands.
In another murli Baba has said that if a lady wants to remain pure then whenever her husband tries to assault her sexually, she should shout so loudly that the husband should run away fearing the neighbours.
Arjuna

bkry · Joined: 17 Apr 2004 Posts: 113 Location: Malaysia

I can't remember any murli where Baba had advised women to scream. He always asked women to stay in remembrance.
_________________
God's angel.
BK Pari

Atma · Joined: 26 Feb 2004 Posts: 98

gyaniwasi,

I see your point. Come to think of it, the murli mentions "the souls of Islam" coming after the fall of the Deity kingdom....not "Muslims". So what you are saying may be right. Abraham is highly respected in Islam. In fact, one of two main Muslim holy days, Eid ul Adha, commemorates Abraham's obedience to God, in his willingness to sacrifice his son.

bkry · Joined: 17 Apr 2004 Posts: 113 Location: Malaysia

One Muslim had told me (before I received gyan) that Islam's teachings are quite close to the teachings of Abraham. She told me that since the Christian teachings are not as close to the teachings of Abraham, Islam is a better religion than Christianity. I am not saying that I agree to this. But maybe, this may be one of the reasons why Baba had associated Islam to Abraham. Another may be that Abraham might have a lot of influence on the Muslims and be seen as a leader by them (at the end of the cycle). The Christians and the Muslims are fighting and the soul of Abraham might be of help where the Muslims are concerned. I am not sure about this. It is just a possibility.
_________________
God's angel.
BK Pari

Guest · Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2004 2:29 am Post subject:

In the advanced knowledge being given by ShivBaba presently, two reasons have specifically been given for associating Abraham with Islam is that at the time of Abraham idol worship was prevalent in Islam and the social system of multiple wives (polygamy) was also prevalent. Prior to Islam the system of polygamy or polyandry was non existent in India or heaven.

When Prophet Mohammed came he prohibited Muslims from idol worship. So there is a lot of difference between the Islam as practiced during the times of Abraham and Mohammad.
Arjuna.

bkry · Joined: 17 Apr 2004 Posts: 113 Location: Malaysia

Yes, it was Abraham who started Islam but they ignored the continued usage of the word "Islam". Then, the followers of Mohammad adopted the usage of the word "Islam" and this word began to be associated to them ever since. This is similar to how the Brahma Kumars and Brahma Kumaris are actually Prajapita Brahma Kumars and Prajapita Brahma Kumaris. However, since the BKs did not use the word "Prajapita" before the Brahma Kumar and Brahma Kumari, the PBKs have adopted the usage of "Prajapita Brahma Kumar" and "Prajapita Brahma Kumari". Now, it would seem as if "Prajapita Brahma Kumar" and "Prajapita Brahma Kumari" no longer belongs to the Brahma Kumaris. It would seem as if it belongs to the Shanker Party.
_________________
God's angel.
BK Pari

bkry · Joined: 17 Apr 2004 Posts: 113 Location: Malaysia

At the beginning of the Copper Age, it was the souls of the deity religion (Brahmans) who had influenced Abraham through religious beliefs and theories. Abraham had then fathered his own religion. It was also the souls of the deity religion (Brahmans), who had in later births, influenced Christ with religious beliefs and theories. Then, Christ had fathered his own religion. It is similar to how gurus began thir own movement / sect through developing on accepted teachings (of others).
_________________
God's angel.
BK Pari

bkry · Joined: 17 Apr 2004 Posts: 113 Location: Malaysia

Before Abraham started his religion, only the deity religion existed. Those deeply involved with religion are refered to as "Brahman". Thus, Abraham was acting as a "Brahman" when he began to get deeply involved with religion.
_________________
God's angel.
BK Pari