XBK Chat (unofficial archive) A meeting place for past members of Brahma Kumaris    FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Profile   You have no new messages   Log out   Re-writing Murlis and general hypocrisies Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next          XBK Chat Forum Index -> XBK discussions View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message uddhava Joined: 20 Jan 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Paramdham Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 11:41 am    Post subject: 07/02/03 It is the Father who is teaching you. God speaks: I teach you Raja Yoga and change you from human beings into deities. ...the Father sits here and establishes heaven through Brahma God is personally in front of you. He says: I come every cycle to establish heaven. The Father sits here and explains these wonderful things. 08/02/03 A soul cannot give knowledge to a soul. Only the Supreme Soul, Shiva, sits here and gives knowledge to Brahma, Saraswati and you children, the lucky stars. That is why this is called Godly knowledge. God Himself has come here to establish this religion. When He enters this one, He names him Brahma...God says: I give the name Brahma to the one whose ordinary body I enter. 09/02/03 Only the Supreme Father, the Supreme Soul, who makes you satopradhan, teaches you Raja Yoga and gives you the knowledge of the cycle...The Father is the Ocean of Knowledge. He sits here and gives you children the knowledge of the beginning, the middle and the end of the world. Human beings don’t know anything. The Supreme Father, the Supreme Soul, who is the living Seed of this tree, has the knowledge of the whole tree. He alone is giving you this knowledge. wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 7:25 pm    Post subject: Quote: the Father sits here and establishes heaven through Brahma This sentence reads like a paradox if we take it literally. Why doesn't God say that He is establishing heaven if He is the one that is sitting here? God, who is eternally soul conscious, is establishing heaven through the soul conscious state of Brahma. It is a joint effort, a combination of the non-physical and the physical. This is how He teaches. This is the magic of the murli. He is hinting at the connection between the incorporeal and the corporeal. He is prompting us to think laterally, beyond the usual boundaries of physical or non physical. It is nothing to do with who is in charge of the voice box! It is to do with the knowledge..........of the incorporeal nature of the SOUL. God is interacting with Brahma and for this to happen there has to be a perspective that relates to the corporeal and the incorporeal. There has to be common ground. We can't get our heads around that common ground if we only remain in the limited, in terms of matter and time. So God advises us constantly "consider yourself a soul". Corporeal - restricted by the limitations of matter and the measurement of time. Inorporeal - eternally beyond time and space........unlimited. It is not true to say that these two aspects don't meet. At which point does the incorporeal meet the corporeal? Here, in the murli. It is similar to when when a thought (incorporeal) creates a physical brainwave (corporeal). At which point does the subtle become gross? Quote: The Father sits here and explains these wonderful things God never has a body, so He can't sit anywhere, so why is He saying this? He is creating. He doesn't create the physical world, as implied in the Bible. His creation is consciousness. This is the magic that He does, through the murli. God, who is eternally incorporeal is linking to the soul of Brahma and Brahma is linking to the children of Brahma. It's contagious....... consciousness with love wahl John Joined: 26 Sep 2005 Posts: 157 Location: UK Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 7:54 pm    Post subject: Quote: God never has a body, so He can't sit anywhere, so why is He saying this? Shiva never has a body of his own. He takes the body of Brahma on loan. Shiva is also the teacher he comes from paramdham to teach us. In the murli it says he doesn't teach by inspiring, but comes directly to introduce himself and teach gyan. Why would he come from paramdham just to inspire, he might as well say it as it is himself. John Joined: 26 Sep 2005 Posts: 157 Location: UK Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 7:59 pm    Post subject: Quote: Inorporeal - eternally beyond time and space........unlimited. I'm interested how you understand this. By beyond time do you mean he can time travel. He says he is bound by drama as well. wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 2:21 am    Post subject: Quote: By beyond time do you mean he can time travel By this I mean that He is Incorporeal and time is not relevant in this perspective. When you are asleep and you dream you could say that you are travelling in time, but are you really? No you are experiencing the incorporeal world of the soul. I don't like to quote murlis because the Administrator doesn't like it and it can get tiresome, but I think it is necessary here. So I apologise first. Sakar murli "I change you from shells to diamonds. Shiv Baba does all of this through this one. He is Karakkaravanhar. He is incorporeal and egoless. Look how God, the Father sits here and teaches you." Quote: Shiva never has a body of his own. He takes the body of Brahma on loan. Yes, and this is true but I worry that, if this is taken so literally, then there is a danger of considering God to be a human being, albeit temporarily. This is how the seed of the confusion of God with Krishna is sown. Shiva never becomes the physical 'driver' of Brahma's body. If He did he would be connected to the brain of Brahma, God would be creating synapses!. There is a big difference, because in my opinion, God never becomes corporeal. Do you agree John? with love wahl wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 2:25 am    Post subject: Quote: He says he is bound by drama as well. Yes, He is bound be the drama, through consciousness. Consciousness is God's medium for creation. That is how we connect with Him. with love wahl wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 2:32 am    Post subject: Quote: In the murli it says he doesn't teach by inspiring, Inspiration, I feel is a more distant connection to God. There is no meeting of the corporeal and the incorporeal. No knowledge of the soul. Perhaps a Christian is inspired by God. As always, this is just my opinion. with love wahl uddhava Joined: 20 Jan 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Paramdham Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 3:33 pm    Post subject: wahl wrote: I worry that, if this is taken so literally, then there is a danger of considering God to be a human being, albeit temporarily. I don't think it is suggested in BK that God becomes a human being. Interestingly however in Christianity, exactly this is suggested - God incarnates in the body of Jesus of Nazareth, and is both God and human at the same time. Anyway in BK it is said that God enters the body of Brahma Baba - so God doesn't become human but temporarily borrows Brahma's Baba's body in order to give us the murli. So presumably while this is happening there are two souls in one body. (With Bapdada and Dadi Gulzar there are perhaps three souls in one body but that is another story.) Anyway the point of my murli quotes above was to give the BK view - the view of Brahma Baba / God and of most or all BK’s - of what is happening at this crucial time. Quote: God Himself has come here to establish this religion....God says: I give the name Brahma to the one whose ordinary body I enter. The Supreme Father, the Supreme Soul… alone is giving you this knowledge. Whether we agree with it is another matter, but I think the BK view is clear - God enters the body of Brahma Baba in order to speak to us. Isn’t the whole point and unique claim of BKWSU that this knowledge is spoken by God himself and that this is the guarantee of its accuracy? If we say that Brahma Baba is merely 'inspired by God' then there is no such guarantee about what comes out of his mouth. uddhava Joined: 20 Jan 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Paramdham Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 3:47 pm    Post subject: wahl wrote: It is nothing to do with who is in charge of the voice box! Oh boy As above I thought that the whole point of BKWSU was that God enters the body of Brahma Baba in order to give us the knowledge. Do you mean that although the murli says that God is speaking, it doesn't actually matter if this is not true? wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 3:58 pm    Post subject: Quote: I thought that the whole point of BKWSU was that God enters the body of Brahma Baba in order to give us the knowledge. When did I disagree with this? with love wahl uddhava Joined: 20 Jan 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Paramdham Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 4:06 pm    Post subject: wahl wrote: Quote: I thought that the whole point of BKWSU was that God enters the body of Brahma Baba in order to give us the knowledge. When did I disagree with this? l I think it was Thu Oct 13, 2005 around 6:22 am wahl wrote: The crucial difference for me is that unlike Dadi Gulzar, Brahma Baba was formulating his own thoughts. Those thoughts of course were influenced by his 'Companion' at the time. I don't think that his body was entered or used by God. I don't know if this accurate according the the BKWSU but it is my understanding and experience. wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 4:25 pm    Post subject: So I did! I think I have to make my understanding clear. I always feel uncomfortable with the description of God entering the body of Brahma Baba because it implies that Brahma Baba is 'asleep' or not aware of what is going on. I think the opposite is happening. The narration in the sakar murli shifts without warning from Baba to Brahma Baba and it is as if the two are working together in a totally natural way. One can't work without the other. The two are inseperable. The Incorporeal is melting with the corporeal. Baba into Brahma. It is more subtle than the usual notion of a medium. If God actually takes on the ability to function in a body, ie talk through it Himself, (use the voice box all on his own ) then how can He remain pure? with love wahl wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 1:58 am    Post subject: I said Quote: If God actually takes on the ability to function in a body, ie talk through it Himself, (use the voice box all on his own ) then how can He remain pure? I would like to amend slightly.........then how can He remain pure spirit? with love wahl John Joined: 26 Sep 2005 Posts: 157 Location: UK Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 2:12 am    Post subject: Quote: I would like to amend slightly.........then how can He remain pure spirit? Good question......I think it is that he stays in the Incorporeal stage of consciousness and in that way I think we can learn that we can be in that stage whilst being in the body. Yes Brahma was always conscious when shiva had entered. It is said you will know his entrance by the words (murli). With Dadi Gulzar it is all very clear....into trance...body taken over..class, meetings etc...bapdada leaves...then out of trance. The physical appearance of Dadi Gulzar even changes. In the days prior to 1969 when Brahma was the medium, we'd have to ask an elder to get an actual description. ex-london Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 131 Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 6:32 pm    Post subject: John wrote: Good question...... Just out of interest John, are you a B.K. or ex-B.K. ? If ex- how long in and how long out? Which way are you headed? Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First         XBK Chat Forum Index -> XBK discussions All times are GMT - 5 Hours Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next Page 3 of 9   You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group