XBK Chat (unofficial archive) A meeting place for past members of Brahma Kumaris    FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Profile   You have no new messages   Log out   Critique of the BKWSU Philosophy Goto page Previous  1, 2          XBK Chat Forum Index -> XBK discussions View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message AndyH Joined: 24 Aug 2005 Posts: 9 Location: UK Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 4:56 am    Post subject: Hi All, pardon me for not replying earlier, but I normally only get at a pc a couple of days a week. Hi Wahl, thanks for the reference i.e. [I think you will find that the publication called 'Pathways To Higher Consciousness' by Ken O'Donnell pretty much covers the BK philosophy and is freely available to buy publicly as well as via the BK shops.] I think that this was published a few years ago and I remember it was received favourably by the BK's. However, why don't the BK's reference it within their website e.g www.bkwsu.com? The BK's are still very hestisant in revealing their philosophy in an open and hence uncontrolled way. Hi Ex-London, [However, there are examples of X-Madhuban Nivasies successfully suing the BK's for loss of earnings whilst being a surrendered BK.] My source for this was a another bk with good links into madhuban. Sorry I can't reveal names as the person is still a bk. (Perhaps the BK's should setup a site like this, where everyone can ask questions of the faith, operation of the organisation, etc and the questions be faithfully answered) Obviously is was considered scandalous that these individuals had sued, as Brahma Baba considers "those who take back what they have donated to be the most evil of people/destroy their fortune" - I can't quite remember the quote from the murlis. Anyway, I do think ex BK's who have donated considerable amounts of time/money could readily sue the BK's, however, this would typically be a rather traumatic experience, perhaps involving acrimonious debate and so I doubt the "nice/spiritual" ex-BKS would have the stomach for that. Nevertheless, I remember at the time of the fund raising for the building of Global Co-operation House, a sister sold her flat, donated all the money and then went into rented accommodation! The last I heard was that she was still renting, and 15+ years on the golden age has not come. I think she has a case. Personally, my loss after 15 years was more of time / career opportunities and I'm not so much angry with the BK's than bitter with myself for not questioning the philosophy more carefully in the early days of being a bk, ho hum! But hey I'm now really really enjoying life and so I count myself very lucky but I know others will not have be so fortunate. [" ... significant spiritual benefit ... "] Yes I do remember the early days of being a BK as very dreamy/trippy. I and others were on a high of euphoria of having found "truth", a wonderful new "family", being so cherished, etc. Addictive? Yes! As regards "spiritual benefit" I guess that all religions including the BK's only really offer the following a) An Ethic - a guide to how to lead your life b) Hope - based on living the ethic you will experience a better quality of life / a wonderful afterlife. c) Care - either by a God or the organisation based on living by the ethic. So if you value "Hope" and "Care" and you become a "nicer" or even more wealthy person by following the ethic then I guess you could be defined as having experienced "spiritual benefit". Really the word "spritual" can be dropped but it is helpful though somewhat vague description of matters to do with faith and ethics associated with faith. Feel free to add to the above list. [Oddly the BK teaching is that the soul cannot do anything including thinking without a body, which infers that the Mind/Intellect is a property of brain function. This is also borne out by real life experience in which we know that infants cannot immediately speak a language and in old age people often lose their mental capabilities.] The BK's teach that the soul without a body is entirely dormant in the Soul World, cannot think, feel, expereience, etc. The BK's are categoric about this. However, as regards being active with subtle bodies. I have no decent source of BK philosophy which I can quote as regards what the "subtle/angelic" body is/does. I fact a friend reminded me recently that Jagdish in a Global Cooperation House class with Dadi refuted that Brahma/Vishnu and Shankar even existed in the Subtle Regions. He sited that it was just Bhakti to beleive the such. Personally I have had no experience of a my subtle body beyond which I have soley imagined. Hi Satish, regarding [Can you deny coming of supreme soul or Brahma Baba or any other great soul in the body of Gulzar Dadi in her trance state to give Murali even if benefits of spiritual experiences is similar in studying other spiritual philosphies and attending meditation classes? If it is not supreme soul what is the purpose of other soul to create this BK movement? ] Good point, as mentioned in the critique, I beleive Brahma Baba to be deluded in thinking that a God has incarnated into his body, in the same way as all other "channelers". The poor quality (ethical, philosophical, grammatical) of the sakar murlis is an indicator of this. Nonetheless there was sufficient enough positive message/vision/hope/ethic within the murlis to attract the romantics/idealists/suffering etc and there still is today. That Dadi Gulzar continues is definitely odd. Is it because she is equally deluded? Is it because despite the deceipt (that God is incarnating into her body) the spiritual value of the organistion is such that it is worth the effort required to maintain the illusion. Or is it because God really does incarnate? I don't know and only time will tell. The good thing is that all has to become clear in the next few years otherwise the "golden age" philosophy will lose all credibility, even for BK's. Cheers Andy uddhava Joined: 20 Jan 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Paramdham Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 3:58 pm    Post subject: AndyH wrote: [However, there are examples of X-Madhuban Nivasies successfully suing the BK's for loss of earnings whilst being a surrendered BK.] My source for this was a another bk with good links into madhuban. Sorry I can't reveal names as the person is still a bk... Dear Andy, There is no need to reveal names but perhaps you could clarify what your source was saying. 'Successfully suing' I think would mean that the (presumably ex) BK claimed a certain amount of money from the organisation, that BKWSU declined to pay, that the dispute then went to a civil court where a judge heard the case, that BKWSU lost the court case and the judge ordered them to pay a certain amount of money to the ex-BK. If this happened, it would be a matter of public record, I mean court cases are generally not secret, it would probably be in the news. However I would be amazed if this did happen because I can’t see what legal grounds there would be for such a claim. People through their own free will give their time and money to all kinds of causes and make choices about what to do with their lives so I don’t see why a court would be interested in such things, especially in India which is full of gurus and avatars. As for loss of earnings isn't this a free choice - no-one is forcing them to do this and what about the thousands or millions of monks, nuns and priests in the various religions - should they be able to sue someone? Maybe you don’t mean 'suing' but rather private arrangements where BKWSU has voluntarily made some payments, perhaps to avoid bad publicity if the ex-BKs were to go public with their grievances. Quote: Anyway, I do think ex BK's who have donated considerable amounts of time/money could readily sue the BK's... I remember at the time of the fund raising for the building of Global Co-operation House, a sister sold her flat, donated all the money and then went into rented accommodation! The last I heard was that she was still renting, and 15+ years on the golden age has not come. I think she has a case. It sounds like you are talking about some kind of breach of contract here. When this unfortunate person gave away the proceeds of her flat, I doubt there was any contract signed (along the lines of 'I am giving this money in exchange for getting into the golden age in x years' ) A donation is a gift not a contract, so once given, I don't think you are legally entitled to ask for it back. Anyway I would be interested if anyone has heard of such a case of ex-members suing in BKWSU or other religious group. I think that where there have been cases of ex-devotees suing their guru in other religious groups, there is usually some criminal behaviour involved such as allegations of sexual abuse. So this would be suing for damage caused rather than for loss of earnings or breach of contract. wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 3:16 pm    Post subject: Hi AndyH Wahl said Quote: I think you will find that the publication called 'Pathways To Higher Consciousness' by Ken O'Donnell pretty much covers the BK philosophy and is freely available to buy publicly as well as via the BK shops. AndyH said Quote: I think that this was published a few years ago and I remember it was received favourably by the BK's. However, why don't the BK's reference it within their website e.g www.bkwsu.com? The BK's are still very hestisant in revealing their philosophy in an open and hence uncontrolled way. Not so Andy, if you take another look Andy you will see that this publication IS available on the www.bkwsu.com under the Self Development section of the English books. with love wahl wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 3:34 pm    Post subject: Hi AndyH AndyH said Quote: So the BKs belief in a soul, which is Mind/Intellect/Sanskars The soul is not simply Mind/Intellect/Sanskars..........these are faculties of the soul which emerge when a soul is in a body. They are not the definition of what a soul is. with love wahl ex-london Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 131 Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 5:41 pm    Post subject: legal grounds? Uddhava wrote: I can’t see what legal grounds there would be for such a claim. The Law of Torts? [ ... not Contract Law ]. But, yes, if it went to court it will be in the public records. My guess is that they would have to have settled out of court rather than parade themselves in front of a court. Which, in a way, is incredibly hypocritical IF the individual's actually believe that this is God. Plus, if we extrapolate, did they have a strictly Brahma Kumari lawyer or was the institution taking manmat from an Shudra solicitor? Or does " God " come down to give legal advice too? The hard part - outside of America - would be proving what damages one had suffered. wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 12:44 am    Post subject: Hello Andy, AndyH said Quote: Via the critique enable people to make an informed choice of whether or not the philosophy is suitable for them With the above in mind, do you think that it may be a good idea for any inaccuracies and false statements that you have made (perhaps inadvertently) in your critique to be acknowledged. Will you be doing this in the future? In particular, I am referring to your claim regarding the so called secrecy of the BK philsophy and the false info about the Ken O'donnell book. This is misleading to any new student and would definitely deprive them of informed choice. AndyH said Quote: However, why don't the BK's reference it within their website e.g www.bkwsu.com? The BK's are still very hestisant in revealing their philosophy in an open and hence uncontrolled way. wahl said Quote: this publication IS available on the www.bkwsu.com under the Self Development section of the English books I am sorry to labour this point but I think that you also have a duty to be truthful and to deliver your information in an open and hence uncontrolled way. with love wahl AndyH Joined: 24 Aug 2005 Posts: 9 Location: UK Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 7:25 am    Post subject: Hi Wahl, I have visited www.bkwsu and to have to go Bookshop and scroll down through Self Development Arts Of Life Discover Inner Peace Discovering Spirituality Food And Soul Cook Book In The Stillness Inner Beauty New Beginnings Orange Socks Pathways Work Book Pathways To Higher consciousness Spirituality In Daily Life Finding The Magic (for children) And then find to happen on Pathways To Higher Consciousness by Ken O'Donnell Explore something new! A whole new perspective on matters of the spirit - the soul/body connection, the battle between intellect and habitual thought patterns, the significance of karmic laws, and a refreshing new understanding of the inter-relationship between God, human souls and the physical world. Which doesn’t even mention” BKWSU philosophy” in the description is hardly open and uncontrolled? Even going About Us> Philosophy you get a version of the BKWSU knowledge which is by no means reference material let alone open and uncontrolled. Cheers Andy AndyH Joined: 24 Aug 2005 Posts: 9 Location: UK Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 7:37 am    Post subject: Hi Wahl, in the critique I say, "Day 1 - Soul Philosophy The teaching is that the soul is an immortal infinitesimal point of spiritual light that enters the foetus at some time after conception and departs the body at death. As such it is considered to bring life energy to the body and is believed to be the centre and source of consciousness. The consciousness is said to comprise of a Mind the thinking faculty, an Intellect that evaluates the thoughts of the Mind and Sanskars that represent personality, memory, habituations, tendencies and sub/unconscious processing." I once asked Dadi Janki at the 2nd Symposium of Science and Consciousness “What is the Soul made/comprised of? She couldn’t say anything more than “consciousness/spiritual energy” with the faculties of a Mind/Intellect and Sankars. This is a specific as the BK’s can be in describing the make up of the soul. Yes what you quote is in error (even the spelling!) but as outlined above the wording of the actual critique is correct. Cheers Andy wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 7:48 am    Post subject: Dear Andy, Quote: She couldn’t say anything more than “consciousness/spiritual energy” with the faculties of a Mind/Intellect and Sankars I think that this is the perfect description of the soul...........my suspicion is that you don't understand it. with love wahl wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 7:51 am    Post subject: Dear Andy, Quote: Which doesn’t even mention” BKWSU philosophy” in the description is hardly open and uncontrolled? You say that your aim is to give everyone a fair and balanced view...................you could have fooled me! with love wahl wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 8:00 am    Post subject: Dear Andy, How about checking out the following BK link for their very open and uncontrolled description of their philosophy? They even have the title PHILOSOPHY displayed, clear and simple. http://www.bkwsu.com/about/phil.html with love wahl AndyH Joined: 24 Aug 2005 Posts: 9 Location: UK Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 8:14 am    Post subject: Hi Uddhava, Quote: Maybe you don’t mean 'suing' but rather private arrangements where BKWSU has voluntarily made some payments, perhaps to avoid bad publicity if the ex-BKs were to go public with their grievances. Yes I'm sure this was the case rather than the formal lawyer/court procedure. A lot of BK's have willingly given time and money and also reliquished a great deal in "good faith". Though the BK's are not legally obliged to reimburse/recompense it might be honourable/virtuous if the the BK's similarly act in "good faith", which perhaps in the case of the ex-nivassis they have. Cheers Andy AndyH Joined: 24 Aug 2005 Posts: 9 Location: UK Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 8:00 am    Post subject: Hi Wahl, kindly carefully read my last 2 posts to you where I replied to both the last two points you have made. Cheers Andy wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 11:15 am    Post subject: Hi Andy, Yes...........I have already done that. with love wahl Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First         XBK Chat Forum Index -> XBK discussions All times are GMT - 5 Hours Goto page Previous  1, 2 Page 2 of 2   You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group