XBK Chat (unofficial archive) A meeting place for past members of Brahma Kumaris    FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Profile   You have no new messages   Log out   Concept of the Egregore and its relevance to the xBK          XBK Chat Forum Index -> XBK discussions View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 10:27 am    Post subject: Concept of the Egregore and its relevance to the xBK On page 4 of the topic on "Child Abuse" Atma asked me to address the topic of the Egregore. Because of its importance I am presenting it as a separate topic for discussion. Atma said: Quote: You used a strange word: "egregor". Are you sure that's a word? I couldn't find it in my dictionary. If it does exist, can you tell us: (1) What it means (2) Its relevance to the RY path and (3) Its relevance to post RY life. Actually I intended to discuss this topic as an integral part of a larger post which I’m preparing but since you ask about it now I shall attempt to answer your question. The viewpoint I offer is not fully developed because I am still exploring the universal significance of the concept, nevertheless I’ll offer what I can at this point. I first came across this term “egregore” in my search for a non-sectarian form of meditation to sustain my spirituality. Like you, I tried to find the word in a dictionary but couldn’t, so I used a very effective search machine – Google – and found it a very interesting concept. To begin with, the word seems to have two spellings – one “egregore”, the other “egregor”. The difference has been researched and included in a presentation by L. S. Bernstein in her scholarly article entitled Egregor - by L.S. Bernstein. She adopts the spelling “egregor” based on an Intermediate Greek- English Lexicon after failing to find the spelling “egregore” during her initial research. I use both spellings, perhaps because at this stage I associate “egregore” with the “group mind influence” and “egregor” with the “entity” meaning. You might appreciate this more clearly if you check the Egregore Definition Compilation which attempts to present a range of meanings to the concept. Briefly, there is one which describes it as “a kind of group mind which is created when people consciously come together for a common purpose.” You can see from this initial definition that it can be very simply defined but can have great potential power when used. The same definition continues to explain that “…unless an attempt is made to maintain it deliberately it will dissipate rather quickly. However if the people wish to maintain it and know the techniques of how to do so, the egregore will continue to grow in strength and can last for centuries.” Another definition refers to “egregors” as “watchers, thought-form entities created by visualization, ritual and such. They come in collective groups. They are somewhat like angels, except that they are relatively mindless and quite willing to follow orders. Some ufos may be egregores”. Here we see a more magical form of definition alluding to the creation of things from thought power. At the end of Bernstein’s article and elsewhere, I have seen described a relationship between the concept of the egregore and a concept termed “meme” (pronounced ‘meem’) in the field of psychology. Bernstein compares the two meanings in a “post scriptum (2004 A.D.)”: 1. Meme - Cultural idea, social practice, concept or action that becomes a norm and begins to repeat itself consciously in a society (term coined by Richard Dawkins in his book The Selfish Gene 1976) (Babylon English English translator software) 2. Meme - A thought that spreads through society taking a life of its own (rhymed with cream) - The Condensed Net Glossary (Babylon software) 3. Meme - meem / n.[coined by analogy with 'gene', by Richard Dawkins] an idea considered as a replicator, especially with the connotation that memes parasitize people into propagating them much as viruses do. Used especially in the phrase 'meme complex' denoting a group of mutually supporting memes that form a generalized belief system such as a religion. This lexicon is an (epidemiological) vector of the 'hacker subsulture' meme complex; each entry might be considered a meme ... Use of the term connotes acceptance of the idea that in humans ... cultural evolution by selection of adaptive ideas has superseded biological evolution by selection of hereditary traits. Hackers find this idea congenial for tolerably obvious reasons. (Jargon File, Babylon Software) To give you an idea of its application, here is an excerpt from a long article on the power of the meme: Meme Lab: The Power of the Meme Meme Religions as Co-Adapted Meme-Complexes Dawkins (1976) introduced the term co-adapted meme-complex. By this he meant a group of memes that thrive in each others’ company. Just as genes group together for mutual protection, leading ultimately to the creation of organisms, so we might expect memes to group together. As Dawkins (1993) puts it “there will be a ganging up of ideas that flourish in one another’s presence”. Meme-complexes include all those groups of memes that tend to be passed on together, such as political ideologies, religious beliefs, scientific theories and paradigms, artistic movements, and languages. The most successful of these are not just loose agglomerations of compatible ideas, but well structured groups with different memes specialising as hooks, bait, threats, and immune system. (Memetic jargon is still evolving and these terms may change but see Grant’s “memetic lexicon” (Grant, 1990)). You can begin to see that the concepts of egregore and meme are not confined to the religious sphere and I have seen a web article referring to The Corporate Egregore alluding to the power of a corporation’s group ethos. In answering your question on the relevance of the egregore concept to BK’s RY path I’ll refer to a striking article entitled The Egregore of a School written by W.E. Butler from Southampton in 1970. I will quote an excerpt for brief comments: From the inner point of view we may see it as a composite thought -form charged with emotional energy. This energy is evoked from all those who are linked with the thought-form and, if there are those in the group who know something of the psychic mechanism involved, it can be directed upon any chosen target. It is obvious that such energy can be used for good or evil purposes, the intention of those who manipulate the energy within the collective thought -form determining the way it is directed. As a general rule the thought-form is built around some person or group of persons, and as the numbers admitted increase, so the power and range of the Egregore increases, and a peculiar reciprocal action takes place. Each member of the group pours energy into the collective thought-form but, equally, into each member there also passes the influence of the group as a whole. This reverse action brings to light certain problems. It is increasingly apparent to those outside the group that any member of itis being influenced to some degree by the pressure of the collective thinking of all linked with it, and unless care is taken , the power of independent thought may be reduced. For many people this is something they actually seek, they may feel inadequate in the everyday world and feel that by being linked in this way, they are protected from against what they see as aggressive tendencies from other people. Or again they may feel inadequate to deal with new ideas and situations and feel that the Group mind will do their thinking for them, and they will not be in danger of wrong thinking. From the first paragraph you can recognize why there is a strong emotional attachment to any group to which we belong – and this is natural since as humans we are naturally gregarious. What is interesting here, though, is the moral choice we make in using that group power. In the BK movement, you may recall, we used to practice World Meditation Sunday where we’d focus our energies on a particular power for world service through the mind. There are other organizations that practice this. I once knew of one that would focus on a specific world leader with a specific thought to influence him or her in specific direction thought to be appropriate for World Peace etc. Other organizations or groups might choose to use that power for less altruistic reasons. The point is that the power by itself is morally neutral in character but universal in its nature and application. An interesting observation in the second paragraph is the reciprocal nature of egregore energy and the mention of potential problems that can arise from this. The third paragraph elaborates on two such problems: first, the reduction of independent thought - a point intensely discussed in various forums on this site – and second, the resulting dependence and complacency that leads to a restriction of intellectual growth. It is these two problems that confront us the most and unsettle us in the BK milieu but, more important, they are sustained because they are subtly and inextricably interwoven in the egregore of the BKs. Still, we may ask, why is this power so strong so that – as you observe with reference to Kevin and Isabel – its power is fearful and hypnotic? In my opinion this has to with the power of faith, sincerity and the best of ourselves that we initially invest in the yagye. We bring with us our purest emotions to know God, to develop a meaningful relationship with Him/Her (the Mother/Father experience or concept) and a willingness to serve that Supreme Being. It is a natural, human imperative that is awakened in us at some point in our lives. That pure energy resides in every human being; where or how we invest it is what determines our salvation. The problem is that once it is invested in a chosen egregore we stand the chance of becoming victims if we are not vigilant in maintaining our basic human right to individual growth through independent assessment of the path we choose. This is why the retention of our critical faculties becomes important and why we must each, ultimately, assume personal responsibility for the choices we make. If we choose to hide under the umbrella of the organization’s egregore and “surrender our intellects” unconditionally, as we are advised to do, then we pay a price for that complacency: we are caught between our active inner selves seeking independent growth and evolution and an unsettling sense of stagnation despite our best efforts to “inculcate knowledge.” But we are afraid to depart because we have become addicted to the organization’s egregore which we ourselves have fed with the best in us. Thus we feel that we are, in a way, trying to destroy an essential part of ourselves the existence of which has become inextricably interwoven with the egregore of the organization. We therefore labour under the illusion that there is no existence or life outside of the organization. The tremendous power of the egregore has gripped us; but it is an awareness of it that can free us. This brings me to your third point of its relevance to post RY life. It is clear from the above that we cannot escape the influence of egregores as long as we live in society, and even on the astral and higher planes of existence egregores exist as fields of energy. When we pray to God or a deity we are participating in a field of energy. Or, from the little that I understand of the ‘holographic’ term, everything is interconnected in fields of energy (maybe Kevin can throw more light on this since he mentioned the work of David Bohm). What matters then is the choice we make in attuning our energies and in associating them. I am learning that one way can be to recognize that there is a field of cosmic energy where the best and highest of human thoughts are projected. It is the field where we take our thoughts in prayer or meditation or wherever we try to reach God and experience that profound sweet silence and enlightenment. For me, at this point, it is not so much a place as an experience of “sweet silence” with a sense of reverence beyond the mundane world. Each of us can choose how we wish to attune to this universal field of energy and imbue it with the best in us so that, in terms of the egregore, we can experience a sense of reciprocation. Or, to borrow a quotation from the Muslims: “if you take one step towards Allah He will take a thousand to meet you”. In another post I’d like to discuss the relationship between our ontological security and the egregore in the context of gyan. Warm regards, Gyaniwasi PS: I typed this in WORD and transferred it. In doing so I lost the electronic links to references. However, if you insert the underlined links into the Google search engine you should be taken directly to the sites. Sorry about that. G. _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...." Guest Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 4:13 pm    Post subject: I'm having a lot of different paradigma's that make sense, but at the moment I'm not in that stage of being able to form a coherent story with them. One of the vital ingredients is missing for the soup. Maybe I've got it but just don't recognise it, that's a good possibility. Your entire post on the egregor reminds me immediately of the holographic paradigma. It's great to see that you round up your findings in documents, and I enjoy reading this a lot! We should be putting up a website for such good articles. A few years ago I was busy with a making a portal website with PHP-Nuke. It's a free web utility that allows you to make a php-based website with features such as a forum, posting articles, polls, etc. For some reason, it just wouldn't work and I stopped paying for that php hoste. But maybe, this could be done properly now (I can imagine that the bug I encountered at the time is no solved) we can make something with gathered forces of those who would be interested. gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:07 pm    Post subject: Kevin, I appreciate your comments. Actually, I had hoped that the XBK ONLY FORUM for discussing ISSUES would have developed into the kind of forum you envisaged but maybe in time this will happen. I hope by then you are found eligible to contribute. Regards, Gyaniwasi _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...." Guest Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 5:20 am    Post subject: That's possible. What is the adminstrator thinking on this? gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 8:24 am    Post subject: I'll include it in some suggestions. _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...." Paul Joined: 13 Mar 2004 Posts: 72 Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 9:46 pm    Post subject: Fascinating post gyaniwasi ! Very pertinent...and enlightening too. You wrote: Quote: An interesting observation in the second paragraph is the reciprocal nature of egregore energy and the mention of potential problems that can arise from this. The third paragraph elaborates on two such problems: first, the reduction of independent thought - a point intensely discussed in various forums on this site – and second, the resulting dependence and complacency that leads to a restriction of intellectual growth. A few questions for you: would not egregore be created by any group faith? In particular, would it not be a part of the major religions too? So, for instance, is there a Hindu, Buddhist, Christian and Muslim egregore too? And, if yes, then how - if at all - do they differ from the BK egregore? Are all "believers", to a certain extent, subject to egregore energy and, by extension, to the two problems you alluded to above - reduction of independent thought, and restriction of intellectual growth? Is that the 'price' of faith and brotherhood? The cost of 'belonging to the club' so to speak? Finally, you mentioned that the links got lost in the transfer from Word. Why not paste them into your next post, so we can see what you are referring to. Would save us a Google search. Thanks. Great stuff. hanuman Joined: 23 Jun 2004 Posts: 174 Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:09 am    Post subject: The Concept of the Egregore Gyanwasi, Your topic is fascinating and timely. There is so much power in thoughts. I would support the idea that being in an organization such as BKSU can stunt intellectual and spiritual growth. Independent thinking, which generates creative ideas, can suffocated. Do you think that meditation can amplify the power of an egregore, for groups and individuals? _________________ Om Shanti, To my brothers and sisters. Love to you all, Errol bhai gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 3:03 pm    Post subject: Paul asked: Quote: A few questions for you: would not egregore be created by any group faith? In particular, would it not be a part of the major religions too? So, for instance, is there a Hindu, Buddhist, Christian and Muslim egregore too? And, if yes, then how - if at all - do they differ from the BK egregore? Paul: Remember this topic is new to me also but I'd say yes, as indicated in the article, an egregore can be created by any group based on its faith. From what I understand, it is possible to be involved in several egregores just as we can belong to several clubs. The power of the egregore depends on the power of thought focussed in it. I should think that the quality of thoughts would also matter thus implying an underlying value judgement on thoughts. If this is so, then it is not so difficult to understand the powerful atmosphere of the BK centres. If we go there with the best of intentions to commune with God Almighty (not merely to ask for power etc. as is common in the path of bhakti or devotion) and all our psychic energy is focussed on Him with the best motivations possible then you can understand the power of such a Faith. Remember, questions of doubt and other negative thinking are not so predominant or even existent once we are immersed in that nascent experience. The emphasis on purity of thoughts and singularity of focus ensures that the atmosphere remains charged with a uniformity of thought power, and that is the power of the BK egregore. Add to that the arcane science whereby our physical surroundings (e.g. walls and things we touch) become imbued with the quality of our personality and you can understand something of the 'electrifying atmosphere' of a powerful centre. I think, though, that any place that has this combination of 'ingredients' regardless of the path will evoke a similar power in its atmosphere. Hanuman, I think that also answers question. If not then please let me know. About Paul's other concerns: Quote: Are all "believers", to a certain extent, subject to egregore energy and, by extension, to the two problems you alluded to above - reduction of independent thought, and restriction of intellectual growth? Is that the 'price' of faith and brotherhood? The cost of 'belonging to the club' so to speak? Yes, I think that is how we get fanatics. No, it is not faith per se that is the problem. We must live by faith; it is part of our human condition. It is when we cease to be aware of what we are doing with it that we run into problems. This is the difficulty of assuming personal responsibility for our destiny: to remain spiritually awake 'lest we be deceived'. In the Christian faith the caution would come in terms of 'beware the false prophets' etc. We cannot escape the responsibility of deciding for ourselves what is authentic or genuine and what is not or when it ceases to be. The shirking of that responsibility is what Butler was referring to and what I paraphrased as leading to 'reduction of independent thought' and 'restriction of intellectual growth.' So, no, that is not the cost of belonging to a brotherhood or club; the cost is remaining spiritually awake. About the direct pasting of links: I'll have to get some tips from Admin. since I've tried to copy and paste directly into my posting and also tried the URL botton but without success. Grateful if any of you can teach me the trick. Gyaniwasi _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...." Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First         XBK Chat Forum Index -> XBK discussions All times are GMT - 5 Hours Page 1 of 1   You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group