XBK Chat (unofficial archive)

anova · Joined: 03 May 2004 Posts: 9

Hi,
I am in a relationship with an xbk man. The reason I am writing, and I hope this is ok with the administrator, is because of the profound effect his bk experiences are having upon him and our relationship. I need help and advice...badly.

I am baring witness to a man who is beingtortured by fear. The origins of this fear are from the teachings of bk's regarding the repercussions of leaving the organisation. Although the reasons for him leaving are for him to tell, if he so wishes, I can say that he also suffered from spiritual turmoil as a member of the bk 'inner circle', so for him, he is truely within a rock and a hard place.

He left approxiamtely five/six years ago and has had relationships prior to ours with little challenge to his psyche. For whatever reason ours has brought his fears to the forefront of his mind. Such is his fear, he is considering returning to the bks, although he is trying to find a compromise.

Let me make myself clear, were he saying that he wanted to return because it was a such a joyful experience and he yearned to be a part of it again, I would not stand in his way. I am a staunch advocate of free will and as such, although with sadness and probably a broken heart, I would leave him with my love and best wishes.

We have debated the common themes: the Dinosaurs, carbon dating etc. but the tenuous explanations he has been give, for him, suffice. He believes that the bk god and his teachings are the truth and has offered examples of expereinces he has had that convince him of this. I come from a Catholic background (though am now lapsed) and have illustrated to him how they believe their god is the truth. He says that he has seen the bk god and conversed with him, I recounted my devouted christian mother's three visitations from the virgin mary.

I no longer worship a catholic god but let me tell you this, neither am I some spiritual worker ant that at the end of the world will be discarded along with so much other excess fodder. I know this to be the truth. I have a soul that in God's eyes is equal to yours - I know this to be the truth because I feel it, my essence feels it and my heart tells me it is so.

As we stand at the moment our relationship does not have a template for the future, after all there is no future, is there. Often and increasingly when we are together he feels guilt. Physically, spirituallyu and psychologically challenged we are together still because we are connected in a way that neither of us can quite explain. When the bk's simmer on the back burner of his mind we have such a good time. We laugh - lots, we share our lives, experience the God given gift of being what we are...human. We talk, walk, cook each other meals. We read passages from books that we think will inspire the other, we tell each other our secrets, our hopes and our fears.

I will ask you this why is your god so ego bound that to be human is punishable? What are the magic words that will release the person I love. What can he do, I do, you do to help? bks and pbks need not reply.

Paul · Joined: 13 Mar 2004 Posts: 72

anova,

A warm welcome to the forum. After reading what you wrote, I feel so sad. I deeply empathise with you and - uncharacteristic for me - I am at a loss for words. I guess that is an indication of how deeply moving I find your story. Such pathos.

I will have to take some time and think about it....turn it over in my mind....before giving a detailed response. For now, just know that here you will find supportive and sympathetic friends.

One quick question, before I go: is your xbk friend aware of this website and, if so, has he considered joining? Just curious.

kyra · Joined: 19 Apr 2004 Posts: 66

Hi Anova,

I really feel for you guys having been this track (and still working on it) for me the fear & guilt thing is the HUGE thing which blocked me before and sometimes still does in continuing on my path of creating a life away from the organization and being an xbk.

I believe that the parts of the murli that say you will be punished if you leave the Brahmins (okay so its not worded exactly that way but it stands out easily what�s being meant) is written by brahmins exercising their beliefs onto other people. Every religion has its corruption and the brahmins are not excluded in that. There is maybe 10% of the murli which to me teaches a pure version of what God would want and the rest contradicts those things.

All I can say is that he really needs to be patient with himself and to remind him that he isn�t bad and impure blah blah for wanting to lead his life in his own way away from the bk beliefs. As Paul said he might be happy to know that he isn�t the only person experiencing these feelings and thoughts, and that there is a happy medium that he can have so he can continue to enjoy the life you both share.

Also maybe you can both talk to a professional who can help you both through these yoyo feelings your boyfriend must be going through.

Kyra

ifegenia · Joined: 12 Apr 2004 Posts: 17

Please take a look at :

http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/articles/BITE.htm

See the entire article at the URL above.

Mind Control - The BITE Model
From chapter two of Releasing the Bonds: Empowering People to Think for Themselves*

*� 2000 by Steven Hassan; published by Freedom of Mind Press, Somerville MA

Destructive mind control can be understood in terms of four basic components, which form the acronym BITE:

I.
Behavior Control

II.
Information Control

III.
Thought Control

IV.
Emotional Control

7. Phobia indoctrination : programming of irrational fears of ever leaving the group or even questioning the leader's authority. The person under mind control cannot visualize a positive, fulfilled future without being in the group.

a. No happiness or fulfillment "outside"of the group
b. Terrible consequences will take place if you leave: "hell"; "demon possession"; "incurable diseases"; "accidents"; "suicide"; "insanity"; "10,000 reincarnations"; etc.
c. Shunning of leave takers. Fear of being rejected by friends, peers, and family.
d. Never a legitimate reason to leave. From the group's perspective, people who leave are: "weak;" "undisciplined;" "unspiritual;" "worldly;" "brainwashed by family, counselors;" seduced by money, sex, rock and roll.

You can see the entire "Mind Control" - BITE Model at the URL I listed above.

Almost all cults use some form of phobia indoctrination so members fear leaving the group.

Ifegenia

anova · Joined: 03 May 2004 Posts: 9

Dear Paul, Kyra, Ifegenia and of course the administrator,

thank you, thank you thank you for your warm welcome and your offer of support. You have no idea how lonely it can be on this side of the bk coin.

I have spent months researching the bk's, I had never heard of them until I met my boyfriend and found myself having to plunge myself into what I see as their murky world, in order to have at least a little clarity regarding what it is he is experiencing.

I have a Masters degree in research but this has been the hardest thing to get to the bottom of. It is such a paradox. Initially all the information indicated that they were pretty innocuous, hobnobbing with the UN no less, yet with my own eyes I could see that they cause pain and suffering. I then began to search with more sinister terms such as bk and 'cult' and others which I won't go into here and my computer went mad, pop-ups cascaded onto the screen, bogus security warnings and various weird and wonderful things were happening (are there bk techno nerds?) but I perservered and found some interesting information along with a few poor souls who's bk experiences obviously has fractured their psyche (wife napping?!!!).

I am not claiming that I am now an expert, I know that I am far from that, but I've looked through the keyhole and seen fleeting glimpses of the shadows.

Administrator, thank you for your warm welcome to this site and for not rejecting me because of my secondary involvement with the bks.

Paul, thank you so much for responding. To answer your question Paul. I wasn't going to tell my boyfriend yet about this site because he can get very defensive about my 'research project'. But he always said that he wished he could talk to others in the same position as himself, that no one else could understand, so I did tell him. He was really interested and quite excited and had a look at the site. Now, I don't know where on the site he looked but he came back feeling a bit down. But he did register and I think he's had a further look around here because he seems more positive. He says he will post a message but needs to formulate it in his mind, I think he's working himself up to it. I have told him it's entirely up to him to decide if he wants to identify himself as my boyfriend. Paul, I am looking forward to your next message, I have read some of your other stuff and I think you are brave and intelligent.

Kyra, thank you so much for you empathetic response. My boyfriend went to a Counsellor not long after he left the bk's but she was mainstream and didn't have a clue how to 'detox' him, indeed he said she seems pretty disturbed by the whole thing herself! He was put off by that and hasn't tried to seek professional help since. Coincidentally, I know of a counsellor who specialises in ex-cult member counselling, I met her briefly years ago but know how to contact her, and he is considering that avenue.

Ifegenia thank you for your informative response. My boyfriend is interested to visit the URL you gave us and will probably have a look sometime next week.

To you all, once again, thank you for your hand of support. If my adversary were another woman it would be a fair fight but to try to single-handedly fight the bk's and their infiltration, assault and subsequent sealing of my boyfriends psyche feels more like I've been ambushed by a mob.

Please keep talking to me, it's so good to know you are here.

gyaniwasi · Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167

Welcome anova! Hi folks, I've been away a while ... just mulling over some things - then my computers went down so I can't be long.
Anova, your relationship reminds me of one I had just after leaving the BKs. I really appreciate your post and look forward to reading your friend's experiences. For now I'd say there are stages of withdrawal - as there are levels of the xbk experience. Later, and take care.
_________________
"Those were the days my friend ...."

Atma · Joined: 26 Feb 2004 Posts: 98

Welcome aboard anova !

I find your story very interesting...and poignant too. Like you said, it looks like an uneven fight. You mentioned that your boyfriend was in the 'inner circle' of the BKs. That, together with the difficulty he is having in breaking free, makes me feel that he may have been involved for a substantial period of time - maybe over 8 years. Am I right?

Time can erase negative memories and feelings. He should focus on experiencing pleasure in life. Thats right - have fun, enjoy himself. Music, dancing, movies, reading, travel....all of these and more. Not as an attempt at 'runnig away' but actually stepping fully into the stream of life. He can balance that with open ended meditation....not BK focussed meditation. That will show him that a person can still be spiritual while being free of the BK paradigm....and actually enjoy life.

On a lighter note, when I first saw your user name, I was reminded of "Ananova", the cyber animated news anchor who reads the news on the net. Have you heard of 'her'? I checked out the website today. I think it may be UK based, not sure. Anyway, it looks pretty cool and comprehensive, although I couldn't get the video news to come up. You can check it out here:

www.ananova.com

gyaniwasi · Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167

Welcome again to the Issues forum Anova! These forums can play a vital role in restoring your friend�s equilibrium after leaving the BK�s organization. There is much to discuss, but that is why this forum was created.
You may have noticed a wide variety of posts and responses with numerous viewers but comparatively few subscribers. There might be several reasons for this including uncertainty or fear of repercussions for �defaming the Sat Guru� as was said in the Hindu scriptures and endorsed in the murli. This uncertainty and fear can be deep-seated and subtle in the case of the B.K because of at least two reasons. First of all, unlike some other organizations, threats of punishment for leaving are not persistently overt, rather, they are often expressed as simply a matter of course � like natural laws of cause and effect. The certitude of a bad result is part of one�s implicit faith that one is offending God Himself. This belief works subtly like the power of suggestion and can have a powerful grip on us as in the case of your friend or Isabel who has shared that kind of fear with us. We all experience it to a greater or lesser degree and it is indicative of our faith or belief that the God of the Brahma Kumaris is, in fact, the God Almighty of all religions and of the entire universe and beyond � Trilokinauth Shiva � Lord of the Three Worlds.
Questioning that faith and withdrawing from that belief is a process that can take weeks, months or years. It can be a simple matter or a complex one. I think what determines that is the extent to which our ontological security depends or depended on the knowledge and experience we gained while associated with the BKs. To understand this more clearly, I�ll share with you a definition of the term �ontological security� as made by R.D. Laing in his work The Divided Self (Penguin 1974). According to Laing �an ontologically secure person is someone who �may have a sense of his presence in the world as real, alive, whole, and, in a temporal sense, a continuous person. As such, he can live out into the world and meet others; a world and others experienced as equally real alive, whole and continuous.� Such a person, he says, � will encounter all the hazards of life, social, ethical, spiritual, biological, from a centrally firm sense of his own and other people�s reality and identity� (39). A BK learns to interpret the world through the eyes of the seven days course. He or She adopts the vision of the �Father� � hence the adage �follow father� (referring to Prajapita Brahma who led by example and attained perfection). When this �centrally firm sense� of self is seriously called into question by others or ourselves we experience a profound psychological disturbance. No longer are we buoyant and full of self- confidence. How we behave under these circumstances varies. For instance, the friend who introduced me to the BKs ended up committing suicide. He �walked away� and after several years of despair literally �walked away� deep into the rainforest and quietly died. Before leaving, he told his sister that he was going to look for a tree and sit and wait upon death. Hunters found his corpse. There is also the story of the dedicated sister who jumped to her death from a high building. Those who witnessed her demise were struck by her peaceful countenance in death. For us in �knowledge� hearing this reminded us of a common analogy read in the murlis: falling from purity is like falling from a five-storied building. Experiences like these remain quietly untold because of our profound �belief� that the fault lies with us and our �lack of faith�. It is therefore not quite reasonable to say � as some have - that tragedies of this sort have not occurred within the BK�s organization. They just have not been publicized because of that curious fear and faith that has gripped us. For years I have wanted to attempt writing my friend�s story from the inner perspective but I couldn�t � still haven�t � because of a lingering doubt about the validity of our disillusionment and pain.
As a result, Anova, you will discern stages of withdrawal among xbks both within and outside this site exemplified by different kinds of reactions � from promiscuous to circumspect; from fearful and timid to bold and reckless. Very few of us, I think, have made a total exit and evolved from our dilemmas and fears. There are those of us who may fall into bkry�s first category of xBKs as stated in his recent post What is the definition of XBK. Some of us live with a paradox of having left the BKs but still enjoy the meditation. I�ve attempted to explain this dilemma at the end of a previous post entitled Messenger vis a vis Message: the seed and the fruit. From my experience, the meditation can only work if we really believe we are in communion with God, and, if we believe that, then we implicitly believe in the validity of the means by which this knowledge and experience came to us � but then that implicit belief contradicts our leaving the organization because it is supposed to be God�s most immediate, living creation � unlike any scriptures � and, furthermore, we can go to Madhuban �to see him action�. But even then you will notice from previous posts that as xbks we face another mystery: we (or at least some of us) are no longer sure that the personage we meet in Madhuban is the same as the one we commune with in meditation. Some of us are able or content to ignore this contradiction but for others, unless we can resolve the two into one, the integrity of the knowledge is called into question. Our ontological security is shaken.
Then there are others of us who implicitly believe in the repetition of the cycle and its prescription of roles according to our deeds or level of purity. Even more interesting are those of us who believe with certitude and conviction that we play a famous role in world history because it has been preordained in the eternal Drama. For instance, in the early days, after hearing that �the souls of Jesus and Buddha will take this knowledge and leave� we used to speculate and fantasize on the identities of those personages. The enigmatic statement that �everything is preordained yet still to be ordained� particularly intrigued us. We were young and energetic and checked our karmas and inter-relations with others to match the roles we were to play in the second half of the cycle. Some of us still hold on to those beliefs while � paradoxically � we question the veracity of the cycle or the source of the knowledge. Why? Because, perhaps, to let go would cause a further erosion of our ontological security.
How, then, can we deal with withdrawal? Or, as Bhagirath asks �Can we ever be free?� Ironically, it seems as though we have to apply a �yukti� or method prescribed by �Baba Himself�: when you wish to change the harmful habit of a child, don�t deprive him what he holds dear until you have replaced it. The art of service lay in that replacement. In a similar way, non-BKs can cause more damage by arguing that Baba is not God Almighty or that the BKs are a cult. One has to be an experienced �exit-guru�, a term used to refer to such counselors. The first requirement, it seems, is to empathize with xbks before sympathizing with them. As one of Christian persuasion, for instance, you might consider �what if the magnitude of God is more than the portrayal of Christ by orthodox Christian doctrine?� or �what if Christ contains more than Christianity?� One has to remember that for an xBK an exit is like denying God in the flesh. It is like Peter�s dilemma or, worse yet, Judas�s contrition because, like your friend, we believe(d) this is/was God speaking directly to Man.
So, Anova, to sum it up, we withdraw to the extent that we are able to remake ourselves. Some of us implicitly retain some aspects of knowledge in our foundation while explicitly questioning or denying those aspects; others � like myself � remain psychologically on the fringes, almost totally devoid of the old faith but without a completely renewed understanding. The remaking and stabilizing of oneself is a long process and we may often find ourselves repeating Bhagirath�s question �Can we ever be free?� The answer is yes if we find courage to have faith in a transcendent and compassionate God (I think Kyra alludes to such a relationship); and it is no if we remain afraid to question and explore a way with sincerity. The first option leads us to an existential doorway, one we are usually surprised to find because of our belief in the cyclic certitude of our future; the second keeps us bound by fear, to a greater or lesser extent, either overtly or in subtle contentment. I hope your friend takes the first option.

Sincerely,
Gyaniwasi

Atma bhai: what exactly is �open ended meditation?� I�m interested.
_________________
"Those were the days my friend ...."

ifegenia · Joined: 12 Apr 2004 Posts: 17

gyaniwasi wrote:

Atma · Joined: 26 Feb 2004 Posts: 98

isabel · Joined: 24 Mar 2004 Posts: 39

LOL

Oh dear, Atma.

Sorry for the silence over here! Three U.S. states and two countries later I'm back online from across the Atlantic.

So much processing....so many painful experiences....and so much growth. I am inspired by you all.

Anova..... like Paul my first reaction is one of not knowing what to say and a feeling of deep empathy.

I think my speechlessness stems in part from my sense of the difficulty of the task ahead for both you and your partner. As the other folks have pointed out, being a B.K. changes many folks at their core. It certainly did me.

When I was a B.K., I found it very difficult to talk to non-B.K.s about what I was feeling and thinking. The B.K. world is full of psychic energy....as I start to write this I think 'anova' will find this utterly crazy...but bear with me and try to imagine this world so that you can understand what your partner is afraid of leaving and of what you have to offer that the B.K. world can't.

Back to the psychic energy - this psychic energy, the stuff that most of the world doesn't believe even exists- is everywhere in the B.K.dom. The blessings from senior sisters and brothers -drishti- that happen during morning class can fill one with love, peace and calm. Incorporating the energy from the B.K.s in one's own life makes it infinitely easier to move through society as people around you intuitively react to your 'soul consciousness'. Then of course the energy that accompanies the encounters with Brahma Baba...

This energy was a life preserver for me, as it probably is for many B.K.s. I came to meditation a deeply wounded soul. The energy allowed me to transform myself, allowed me to hold onto and believe in a positive image of myself, it quieted the negative thoughts. It kept me sane.

Leaving the B.K.s meant the possibility of endangering all that. I shied away from relationships after I distanced myself from the B.K.s because if I committed to man, that would mean I would not have access to the life preserver if I needed it. Further I had seen, felt, lived and knew this incredible psychic energy. How isolating to lose access to it and to no longer have the company of people who had shared in the energy or even have people in my life who would believe my experiences.

What I didn't have as a B.K. though was earthly love, friendships where I could share my thoughts (how do you tell your friends about listening to God over the internet, wondering when destruction will take place..) and I couldn't really enjoy the here and now, where I think much of spirituality is actually to be experienced.

What you have to offer your partner is all of the above. The choice to leave is ultimately his, but he will likely feel much encouraged to make it if he knows that a patient, loving and understanding person will be there to help him through it.

Good luck and my best wishes to you both -Isabel

Paul · Joined: 13 Mar 2004 Posts: 72

anova,

My fellow XBKs have stolen my thunder. They have made fine contributions, before and after your last post. Perhaps I'll let you give your reactions to the recent posts before I jump in again.

gyaniwasi · Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167

Hello anova! Are you still tuned in? Can't hear a word from you Confused

I hope you're not too distressed Crying or Very sad

Drop us a line and take care.
_________________
"Those were the days my friend ...."

anova · Joined: 03 May 2004 Posts: 9

Hi,
Sorry for the delay I will explain at the end of this message what is going on. Actually, I will probably post another message as my computer keeps timing out and this message has been prepared for a while, so bare with me please.

There is so much to reply to, please forgive me if I miss something important or get mixed up this is due to frantic typing for the above reason!

Atma,
I have heard of Ananova but there is no connection. I was interested in your notion of ‘agnostic meditation’. Someone I know said that hopeful agnostics dominate the world. This is not so bad; it could be that pure atheism is out of fashion.

Gyaniwasi,
I was sorry to here of your friend’s death. I do have experience of this, a member of my immediate family committed suicide when I was a teenager. Like your friend, comments were made regarding how peaceful she looked and we, her family, truly believe she had a spiritual companion to guide her on her way. Why not begin writing your friends story here.

You said, “ The God of the Brahma Kumaris is, in fact, the God Almighty of all religions and the entire universe and beyond”. Em, if you have hard evidence of that (in fact) then I’ll be knocking down the door of my nearest bk centre in the morning. I’m sorry, I may be nit picking, it’s just that I believe it’s this spiritual exclusivity that gets us all into trouble.

You also said “ from my experience the meditation can only work if we really believe we are in communication with God”. Let me return your challenge: what if the magnitude of God is more than the portrayal of Shivbaba? What if God contains more than Shivbaba? Then the potential for every man to commune with God is opened and we become equals.

This is what I believe and it is closely related to Neale Donald Walsch’s dialogue in his Conversations with God books. I believe that god is non-judgemental in a way barely conceivable by man. He does not have ego-based responses such as anger, jealousy and a need for retribution. He requires nothing from us, we are here simply to experience what to the soul is just conceptual: Joy sadness, pain, love and fear. I believe that God, in a state of non-requirement, is willing to oblige us in our creation of Him – Allah, God, Buddha etc. – and will commune with us in congruence of our historical, social, educational, political constructs if that’s what we have decided we need to be close to Him. That is why Christians tend to have visions of biblical deities and why others reach bliss with their own versions of God. That is why my Boyfriend saw the bk God and my Mother saw the Virgin Mary.

That is also why I wouldn’t dream of saying to my Boyfriend that the bk God is not real but why I have asked him to at least try to cut out the middle man, that is the Murlis, and talk to any God he wishes to create for himself. I know this isn’t as easy as it sounds. But bit by bit I have cut out the pope, the priests, the cannons, the bishops the monsignors and personally, I find the communication with God comes much clearer. My Boyfriend says that my God is too good to be true. I reply whom else but God can be too good to be true.

Isobel, Hi.
Thank you for responding to the SOS and for your kind words of support. Let me ask all of you: where you all deeply wounded souls when you came to the bks?
[quote][/quote]

ifegenia · Joined: 12 Apr 2004 Posts: 17

anova said: