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A meeting place for past members of Brahma Kumaris
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casa
Joined: 24 Apr 2004
Posts: 12
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 Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 8:57 am Post subject: |
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I agree with Kevin that the bks are a microcosm of the world. This does not excuse the blatant discrimination that can and does occur in some areas, with some people, some of the time.  (thanks Kevin)
I have been witness to, and likely unconscious participant in, discrimination of all sorts. The most obvious are colour, gender, race, religion... these are all discriminated against in the bks. One cultural group feeling superior to another, whities getting more chances in Madhuban, all senior roles within bk predominantly Indian, anti-hierarchy, etc.
And the more subtle discrimination being judgement based on ways of perceiving or thinking or living one's spiritual journey.
And of course the murli reveals daily... multiple times... that soul consciousness is the key. Judgement of others is always about protecting a false sense of self... ego... body consciousness.
While there is no doubt discrimination, I also see incredible hope because we do have the way out of this heinous model of being. Soul consciousness. The retreats for the gay and lesbian community in Australia received feedback from many of the participants that was beautiful...
"It's amazing. In our own faiths we are shunned and considered sinners and dirty and wrong, yet here, with people who don't know us we are accepted for who we are." Apparently, this was common feedback accompanied by tears and smiles.
So there is hope.
The Appreciative INquiry Model of transformation tells us that by finding where things are working, are giving life, and by telling those stories, we create the energy for positive change... for inspired shifts in thinking and behaviour. By focusing on what isn't good, we propogate that.
This morning in the murli Baba said that if he were to acknowledge all our weaknesses we wouldn't have the strength to go on... rather he becomes innocent, ignorant of our weaknesses... he sees the soul. His vision has the power to lift us to be who we are rather than continue to act out our bad behaviour.
Of course, this doesn't mean that we become stupid and brainwashed to what is unspiritual, but if we focus on it we're giving it power to grow. Focusing on the beauty, the examples of truth in action, provde power and support for them to flourish.
I still have hope. |
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bkry
Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 113
Location: Malaysia
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| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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You are right. We should see everyone as souls and not on the basis of skin colour.
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God's angel.
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bkry
Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 113
Location: Malaysia
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| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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Did you know that a lesbian and homosexual are behaving like how they are behaving because of stong personality traits of previous births which are in an emerged state (in this birth). One can say that the role of the previous birth is in an emerged state and is thus intefering with the role of this birth. With strong dhristi and the soul conscious view, these strong personality traits of the previous births can be removed and the person can thus be made to feel like how normal men and women do.
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God's angel.
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casa
Joined: 24 Apr 2004
Posts: 12
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| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks bkry - naturally yes of course these sanksars are carried... however I do not feel it is up to me or anyone else to make these people NORMAL. Normal is a distortion anyway... it's not truth, it's simply tacit agreements about how we all should behave. Normal in Malaysia is different from normal in Italy, different from normal in US, different from normal in Saudi Arabia. Trying to make people 'normal' is simply trying to make them like you want them to be that makes you comfortable.
the only game is to love and accept all souls for who they are, as they are... including myself.
And i don't think I really subscribe to your theory... there are many 'gay bks' who don't live out their sexuality actively but still have those preferences. |
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bkry
Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 113
Location: Malaysia
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| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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Sweetest Casa,
This theory of transforming homosexuals into the normal state does work. I have seen it happening. It needs powerful dhristi and the willingness of the homosexuals to co-operate. If the homosexuals do not co-operate, they will be able to re-emerge the personality traits of the previous birth again.
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God's angel.
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bkry
Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 113
Location: Malaysia
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| Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2004 12:18 am Post subject: |
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I remember, when I was quite young, I saw a black man for the first time. I had never seen anything like him before and so I looked and looked and just looked until the man started smiling at me and I began to realise that I was staring at him. White people are found everywhere and people are used to seeing and mixing with them. But Blacks are not found everywhere. Thus, when people see them, thoughts such as,"Hey, what is this? Who is this?" can arise and fear can also come into the picture because one is dealing with a situation which one has never dealt with before. It can seem like as if they seeing someone from another planet. One can't say that everyone discriminates against the blacks. Sometimes, it is just a matter of people not being familiar with them.
_________________
God's angel.
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Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2004 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Trying to make people 'normal' is simply trying to make them like you want them to be that makes you comfortable.
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I agree. But I do want to remark something that has been bothering me: it is the fact, that these days - at least where I live (Europe) - there is this attitude that everything is normal and right. I'm almost lead to believe that it is good to be gay. On the other hand, in my opinion it remains that being gay IS not something that was intented by nature, i.e. it remains irrational behaviour no matter how you turn it. But when you say this, you're immediately seen as a discriminator - but this has nothing to do with it. The facts have nothing to do with how we ought to threat each other, i.e. equally.
Gays ask not to be discriminated - in a while in my country they will be having their own TV-channel -> what's that supposed to mean?
Likewise, positive discrimination can cause obstacles in solving society's problems. For example, in my country it is a fact that north-african youth is more criminal than ALL the other groups - they seek trouble with everyone, they lack complete respect towards other people, the country they live in and the possibilities that are offered in this genereous society (we have the BEST social system in the world) etc. ... and this generalisation is most accurate. Yet, many people here will keep saying, 'it's not their fault, they've been put in this position etc". The thing is, they have put themselves in this position. No one has troubels with other groups at parties etc. - or put it more accurately: not more than with another group. Now, positive discrimination is naïve for this troubles -- there ARE behavioural problems related to particular groups. It is not racist to point this out, yet, in these times overhere, it is politically incorrect to say this. What's even more: they themselves are the most racist people you could imagine
go figure - as a government these are most difficult problems. It's duty is to threat everyone the same - EQUALLY - no matter who it is
What i want to say is that, it's easy to say that you have to threat everyone equally, but when put to practice you will bump into certain groups that do distinct themselves - whether it be behaviour or not - so we cannot deny that there are differences and these cannot be ignored. For example, a doctor today has to see which kind of race he's investigating, as some medical threatments are bad for some, whilst not for the others. For many decades, doctors etc. were told to threat everyone in the same way - luckily this is now over and doctors do look at skin colour (ie, race) as to give the best threatment in some cases. Thus, equality is not a synonym for 'being the same'! And equality works in both ways: minority groups always expect an effort of the bigger group for acceptance and support, but very often there is little integration from their own behalf. |
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anova
Joined: 03 May 2004
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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emmm, I'm going to butt in on this one! Sorry just can't keep quiet. Can I just point out that (and I have this on very good authority as a member of my family works for the pobation system) the reason it appears that more black people are criminals is because they are more likely to be interned than white people who have committed the same crime. Kevin with all due respect can you provide hard evidence that black people are more likely to cause trouble, are more racist and why would they want us to make an effort if they don't want to integrate? If this is you personal opinion, fine, but please say so. If you are standing up and stating these things as fact then please back that with robust evidence.
I would also like to point out that Doctors are expected to treat everyone as an individual. I work in the medical profession and believe me one man's stomach upset is another man's stomach cancer.
In regards to unnatural behaviour ( gay people) I think that there is nothing more unnatural than blowing yourself and others up in the name of God, finding children sexually attractive, inciting hatred against your own race (that's the human race of course) and I could go on. Humans who don't fit conservative opinion are ousted, discriminated, and humiliated shouoldn't that be classed as unnatural. Love is all around us in all forms, if we can not recognise that two, consenting, mixed race gays ( for instance) can love each other then where else are we not recognising love?
Anova. |
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tigresslilly
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Bkry,
One must be very, very body-conscious to react in a shocking manner when they see someone who look diffrent than themselves.  People from other ethnic groups have only minor diffrences like skin, hair, bone structure, and to some extent behavior based on how they are socialized. I think what bothers most people is when they see a general trend or behavior amongs an ethnic group not shared by their own group. For example i often hear white's complain that Indians are very money hunger and have so much attachment to money that their quality of life suffers. While this may be true, but if they socialize with non-indians they may not hold on to those values. My request is to give people a chance and get to know them and soon you will see that the similarities outweigh the diffrences. [color=red][/color] |
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Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Kevin with all due respect can you provide hard evidence that black people are more likely to cause trouble, are more racist and why would they want us to make an effort if they don't want to integrate? If this is you personal opinion, fine, but please say so. If you are standing up and stating these things as fact then please back that with robust evidence. |
firstly, it is not about black people, it is about people that have immigrated from marocco and also turkey (mainly in the fifties). official studies have been made, an official book about the research on these integration problematics has been published. The facts are what they are. Again, as I witness in your reply, there is a strong mechanism of wanting to avoid such conslusions... and let me emphasise again: it is not about the group, it is about the problems who happen to be related to them.
In holland problems are getting a bit more out of control in cities, and controversial laws are being executed to avoid the further development of things like getto's. the multi-cultural dream is over for the bigger part - and there is only one party to blame in this game and that's us: for being very naïeve, and not being assertive enough (for example, obtaining the Belgian nationality is a piece of paper that has no content whatsoever -> there is no demand for integration!). the realisation is there from the governments, but it is too late.
I didn't mean to divert this topic entirely towards complicated problematics overhere, but the problem here lies also for a big part in the cultural history of Europe versus the Islam world. If it weren't for the very close victory at Poitiers, the Arabs at the time would have invaded Europe (they possesed spain for a long time, and also the Turkish part that lies in Europe wasn't theirs orginally). Likewise, the Christians went on several big crussades and killed many moslims. It's save to say, that they both share a hostile attitude towards each other. The past is the past, of course. But the islam is a religion that is per definition entangled in politics - i.e. it contains clearly stated laws, this in contrast with christianity. So, moslims who expect to be able to follow these laws get problems, because some of them are against other laws such as equality between man and wife. How does on cope with that? So, diversity is not only about races, it's also about customs and religion. Some are more compatible than others. |
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bkry
Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 113
Location: Malaysia
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| Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| tigresslilly wrote: | | My request is to give people a chance and get to know them and soon you will see that the similarities outweigh the diffrences. [color=red][/color] |
I have met some Blacks in Madhuban, India during my first trip there. I found the Blacks to be very pleasant. But I would say that not all of them are Blacks. There is the white breed and the black breed. When they get mixed, what would you call them? Half-breeds???????    
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God's angel.
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bkry
Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 113
Location: Malaysia
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| Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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Hmmm. Maybe I shouldn't have done what I done in my message above.
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God's angel.
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bkry
Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 113
Location: Malaysia
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| Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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The Muslims' religion and the Christian religion have both branched off from Abraham's theoris. Yet, the Muslims and Christians fight so much. I was told that it was a Jew who killed Christ. It has to be noted that it was Christ who had first diversified from Judaism (the faith of the Jews).
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God's angel.
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bkry
Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 113
Location: Malaysia
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| Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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The Hindus are fortunate that Gurus teach and practice going into the silent peaceful state. If not there might have been numerous wars amongst the Hindus because of the numerous diverse opinions within the religion itself. Though conflicts can arise, there are no wars. The Buddhist are also a branch of the Hindu religion and even in that religion there are no, or not much, conflicts. Interesting facts to note, don't you think. Maybe, all these point to the fact that it is better to turn inwards. This seems to help keep peace within the community (to a greater extent).
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God's angel.
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casa
Joined: 24 Apr 2004
Posts: 12
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| Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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It's so interesting isn't it the level of 'heat' that has emerged in this conversation?
I have a non-bk friend who played a big part in the struggle in south africa. I remember saying to her once that I wasn't racist. She challenged me and said that if you notice that someone walking towards you is black, yellow, green or blue... you are racist. You don't notice that someone is white and there your preferences lie.
Truly I think that soul-conscious practice (not the theory) is the only way out of discrimination. |
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