XBK Chat (unofficial archive) A meeting place for past members of Brahma Kumaris    FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Profile   You have no new messages   Log out   After Raj Yoga, can there be ANY faith? Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next          XBK Chat Forum Index -> XBK discussions View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message double_light Joined: 07 Jul 2005 Posts: 23 Location: portuguese living in Sweden Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 2:25 pm    Post subject: Hi Jim! We all thought that we had cracked it... and that's why everything is so confusing imediately after leaving the BK's. As for myself, I've learned and accepted that there will never be answers to everything. Life is beautiful and exciting as it is, with its mysteries and secrets. In fact, looking and searching for a magic answer to everything (like the BK's seemed to be) can lead to traps like the one we experienced. At the same time that we thought we'd cracked it, we were actually going as far from the truth as one can come - ruling our lives from the head of others instead of from our own thoughts and wills and dreams... As for myself, I've acomplished much more when I came to the insight that I'm free, that I don't need a magical answer, that there is no magical answer, as when I thought I'd cracked it!!! Good luck! Love and Light _________________ XBK, happy with the present moment uddhava Joined: 20 Jan 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Paramdham Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 6:11 pm    Post subject: jim brady wrote: I would imagine that most of you readers, you ex bk’s, have become agnostics or atheists. Once you’ve been in Raja Yoga it’s hard to see where to go once you’ve left. Can’t see how any Westerners could have gone back to mainstream religion and become again Catholics, Protestants, Born-agains, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists etc. since we spent no little time rubbishing and scoffing at the inadequacies of these faiths. It is an interesting observation that xbk's tend not to go on to join other religious groups. Does anyone know any case of this happening? I don't think though that most xbk's become agnostics / atheists. On the evidence of this forum, there was Kevin who I think turned into a Marxist but many or most xbks seem to retain a spiritual / religious view, even while not attached to any particular religious group. Maybe we can say that the typical xbk is a kind of 'free spirit'. Also I guess that individual xbk's have their own (different) reasons for not joining another group, and their own feelings about being group-less, root-less. As for myself, I wish I had a group to belong to . wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 1:26 am    Post subject: jim said Quote: since we spent no little time rubbishing and scoffing at the inadequacies of these faiths. I really don't think that this is a fair comment Jim. I don't remember meeting any BK souls that did this. I am not sure how this kind of attitude would come about in a soul that has acquired an understanding of the tree and the cycle? with love wahl double_light Joined: 07 Jul 2005 Posts: 23 Location: portuguese living in Sweden Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 5:57 am    Post subject: Whal wrote: Quote: I don't remember meeting any BK souls that did this. I am not sure how this kind of attitude would come about in a soul that has acquired an understanding of the tree and the cycle? No, but the most sure looked down to other faiths and mentioned people within them like the "poor worldly souls doing bahkti, they really need our mercy". There was a sense of arrogance and feeling of being above all... _________________ XBK, happy with the present moment wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 7:13 am    Post subject: Quote: There was a sense of arrogance and feeling of being above all... I am really surprised at this, maybe I was lucky. with love wahl double_light Joined: 07 Jul 2005 Posts: 23 Location: portuguese living in Sweden Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 2:47 pm    Post subject: Hi Whal! We probably all had different experiences when it comes to the BK... But in my view, what is called "the intoxication of being Baba's child, chosen by God"... in my view that feeling of intoxication is actually the arrogance of feeling more special than all other humans and of course a big and important detail in the brain wash process... Sorry if I sound a bit tough when I talk about BK, but I really don't have anything nice to say about it and it caused me much more damage than good... Despite many persons that I met there that were genuine and good hearted but brain washed as everyone else there... Love and Light _________________ XBK, happy with the present moment double_light Joined: 07 Jul 2005 Posts: 23 Location: portuguese living in Sweden Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 2:48 pm    Post subject: Hi again Wahl! I'm just sorry that I misspelled your name.... Love and Light _________________ XBK, happy with the present moment ex-london Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 131 Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 2:01 am    Post subject: wahl wrote: jim said Quote: since we spent no little time rubbishing and scoffing at the inadequacies of these faiths. I really don't think that this is a fair comment Jim. I don't remember meeting any BK souls that did this. I am not sure how this kind of attitude would come about in a soul that has acquired an understanding of the tree and the cycle? with love wahl I completely agree with Jim on this. As written elsewhere, to a B.K., and especially used by the senior sisters in my experience, the words " Bhakti " [ meaning the practise of all non-Brahma Kumari religions ] and " Bhagats " [ meaning those that practise all non-Brahma Kumari religions ] were the ultimate put downs. Constant subtle but all the same outright put downs. I think it was eromain that likened the latter to the " nigger " word. And I think this is also a fair criticism. Combine this with the constant, repetitive references in the daily teachings, " they are ignorant, you are knowledgeful ... they are impure storks, you are pure swans ... they are ugly, you are beautiful ... they are untouchables, you are the top knot brahmins ", what does that add up to? As an example from my own experience, I remember discussing with another Brahmin my feeling for a need for exercise and I was considering Tai Chi. Sister Jayanti - who I am generally sympathetic towards - walked by and the Brahmin turned around and asked her what she thought about the idea, " taking Shrimat " from the senior sister as it were. In one short sentence the idea was cut down along the lines of, " I'll have time for *Bhakti* in another life ... ". Now, Tai Chi is not even a religion, it is a school of exercise and even it was cut down with clear dissapproval as " bhakti ", a blind searching that does not reach to God by Brahma Kumari lore. To a young B.K., a very clear indication was given. Across otherwise jovial conversation, often the term Bhakti or bhagats were used, perhaps as sweetly and politely as most B.K.s converse as put downs of others ideas [ " Oh, that's just *bhakti* ... " ] and there was a clear sense of superiority. My guess is that the psychological superiority complex - on no practical basis whatsoever - encouraged at the root of the faith is the major component of " the hook " that keeps many B.K.s on the party line. The distinction of what is " knowledge " and what is " ignorance " lies entirely in the hand sof the senior sisters - who, of course, enjoy the high of high positions within the world superior Brahma Kumari souls. Perhaps you were just too nice a person to have noticed all this, or may be you have just not considered it before? double_light Joined: 07 Jul 2005 Posts: 23 Location: portuguese living in Sweden Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 8:40 am    Post subject: ex-london said: Quote: My guess is that the psychological superiority complex - on no practical basis whatsoever - encouraged at the root of the faith is the major component of " the hook " that keeps many B.K.s on the party line. The distinction of what is " knowledge " and what is " ignorance " lies entirely in the hand sof the senior sisters - who, of course, enjoy the high of high positions within the world superior Brahma Kumari souls. I think most of us knew it and experienced it as just a you described it... I just wonder in what extents we were brainwashed to accept all the matters in what BK's contradict themselves... Now, afterwards, everything is so obvious... _________________ XBK, happy with the present moment zhukov Joined: 10 Apr 2004 Posts: 86 Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 1:18 pm    Post subject: ^^^ Indeed! I must say I feel lucky not to have been drawn very far into "the BK fold" before I was asked to leave - so I had not much 'faith' to speak of to supplant with anything new So now I leave the universe open to show me anything in future...if it ever does. But it won't be a BK-like-man-made dogma/religion/power trip again uddhava Joined: 20 Jan 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Paramdham Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 2:48 pm    Post subject: zhukov wrote: I must say I feel lucky not to have been drawn very far into "the BK fold" before I was asked to leave - Dear zhukov, Maybe you have mentioned this eslewhere but why were you asked to leave? zhukov Joined: 10 Apr 2004 Posts: 86 Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 3:17 pm    Post subject: Hello Uddhava - well it's simple. A few months after completing the 7-week course, I let slip to a sister the fact that I was having an extremely hard time attempting to inculcate 'The Knowledge' sufficiently & therefore make myself believe in 'Baba' - which I was assured was what was necessary to end all my suffering and provide nothing but "super-sensuous bliss" in perpetuity (and I quote lol) I mentioned that fact that I felt like I was "brainwashing myself" and that's when I was advised not to come back...I don't think they liked my choice of words, however accurate I felt they were sister Joined: 11 Oct 2005 Posts: 8 Location: the Netherlands Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 9:37 am    Post subject: Well it seems to happen that xbk's turn to 'old' religions. I did. I went to christian church only until my 7th with my aunt. My parents had only anger and disappointment about the concept 'church' (this had to do with how my father was raised: only rules and laws). So I became very anti christianity. It was my aunt however, who kept in touch with me during BK. One day she said her praying was like yoga (of course I didn't agree that time). After 4 years of BK and a lot of grieve and depressions futher, I entered a christian worship service, almost by accident. I recognized the white light, the peace and the brotherhood like with BK, but the love which was thrown over me (not like a little shower, but like a full bath!!) when I closed my eyes, was so much much more than I ever felt when meeting supreme soul (shiva)...Also the preaching (Eph. 3:1 about the hight, depth, widt of the love of Jesus, touched me right in my soul. I was shocked but also convinced. Getting back home I looked for a bible study group, found deep peace in Jesus and was baptised 1 year later. I had a lot of trouble though experiencing all the promises from God to me which I read in the Bible. I wondered why, because my faith was complete. Only after being a christian for 10 years I met people to pray for and with me to break all the old bondages. I'm not completely free and some things are still attacking me, but I'm now enjoying more and more the practice done at BK in my new belief. Many christians have problems to aim their thoughts on God during the day; well, that's what they practice in BK. I enjoy also many gifts of the Holy Spirit, because they come when you fully give your life to Jesus. I never ever thought or even imagened to become a member of a christian community, but it did happen and I'm in love with God as never before. _________________ Luke 6:27-38 Joel Joined: 09 Nov 2004 Posts: 102 Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 1:33 am    Post subject: Frank wrote: Yesterday I have been in the BK centre in Frankfurt/Germany. ( 5 Years after I was there at the opening by Gulzar Dadi)) I noticed that the BK’s there are very open and willing to churn on controversial subjects. Frank Two of the earliest western BKs used to run a center in Frankfurt: Suman Bakshi and Stephan Nagel (also called Surya). That began some 20 before 1993, which was when I got to know them better and all of us were discovering our own identities distinct from the organization we gave many years of our life serving. Stephan wrote an early book about Raj Yoga that was translated into several languages. More recently he did a PhD thesis in Religious Studies on the Brahma Kumaris that reached several hundred pages. He also taught himself western astrology, and on a visit to Japan piqued my interest in the subject. Suman is a brilliant charismatic woman who gave wonderful lectures in English, German and Hindi; I thoroughly enjoyed her visit to the center I had opened in Osaka. What were their stories and why did they leave? If I fall in love with someone, in the state of being in love, I tend overlook that person's previous failed relations. They weren't happy, but I am in a state of bliss. I knew Heidi Fittkau-Garthe, too, involved with the center in Hamburg. She, too, was a charismatic speaker, and I knew her for a time before she went off the deep end. She had apparently decided she was an instrument of God, something I believed myself during my first month of intoxication in a new faith of discovery. It makes perfect sense of me that a new lover of the BK family and its founders would not care to learn all of the past. Going to Madhuban everything seems so divine, and in many ways it is. Who else can organize a conference for 5000 people in the middle of nowhere, a mountain village with little infrastructure: transportation, accommodation, food, medical care, etc. etc? The relationship will be different after ten or 20 or 30 years of marriage. This thread began about our relation (or perhaps susceptibility) to organized faiths after leaving the BKs. Frank and others here mention a faith and relationship with God that may have arisen during BK life that extends after leaving the group, Frank saying that such a recognition will remain forever -- his experience, which I am sure is deeply enriching for him. For me, I don't see that faith in love-knowledge-etc. entity is necessary to lead a fulfilled life. Seeing so many counterexamples of (in my estimation) fulfilled individuals who show no evidence of such faith. Fresh souls, say the BKs. You can't expect such if you are an old and worn-out soul that needs to recharge from the Generator, they say. In the past few months I've been involved with a psychotherapist, Natasha Mann who has guided me into clear experiences/observations of myself (individually and in a group context) and through these experiences, concrete lessons about old and new ways of relating to life. It is amazing to make progress in areas that I've felt a roadblock and deadlock for some 20 years. In the past ten years of working with the Feldenkrais Method, I've been able to address issues by a scientific and compassionate process of perturbing my lifelong movement habits and using structured awareness practices to improve the component skills through which I function in the world. Neither of these practices is an organized religion, although both have embedded assumptions about the potential of individuals to achieve greater mastery of their own lives. Both have a culture of methods, as does the Imoto Seitai practices I've learned here in Japan with regard to the healthy functioning of the body's organs. In the Feldenkrais work (based on the methods developed by the eponymous Israeli physicist) one of the early lessons for practitioners-in-training is that the first principle is that there are no principles. Someone with deep firsthand experience of a field will be able to break most (if not all) the rules of thumb taught to a newcomer. Accomplished musicians and artists also break the "rules" of their craft. So it is not much a question of faith, as in mastering the degrees of freedom within a given context whether oil on canvas, sound filling time, or breath and movement in the activities of life. To live in one of these modalities is to collapse the infinite possibilities of the situation into a particular story that is uniquely your own. Organized religions and faith assume that at some level, one set of principles can be applied by everybody: One size fits all. Everyone can be saved. But there is a difference between an abstract prescription and the messy details of real life. The highest levels of generality are not very useful. "Use Ki" say most teachers of the martial art of Aikido. (Use Chi if a teacher of Tai Chi -- same Chinese character.) But no projecting of Ki will enable an inexperienced batter to hit a major-league fastball, an inexperienced healer to recognize the idiosyncratic adaptations that govern a particular person's health. Faith in a Helpful Entity is rarely, very rarely, a substitute for real-world experience, for the competence attained through an apprenticeship of trial and error. gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 9:17 pm    Post subject: Hi Joel, I appreciate this contribution. You said Quote: Faith in a Helpful Entity is rarely, very rarely, a substitute for real-world experience, for the competence attained through an apprenticeship of trial and error. In so far as this point alludes to an existential responsibility to work out or evolve our individual growth, salvation and enlightenment I agree with its essence. One of our main problems as humans is that we are bred to be children essentially. This dependency is perpetuated by common religious faith regardless of culture - whether Christian, Islamic, Hindu or otherwise. It is not that the original teachings of these faiths are in error, but those teachings have to be personally assimilated through our individual life's experiences and not through blind adherence to tenets or mere belief. It's as if to understand the meanings of these teachings we have to first lose that childish faith in mere words and experience their truths anew from our lived experiences. I share your view about being enthralled by the newness of a relationship, even within the context of our BK experience. Recently, I saw on public television a special documentary- Jewel of Light - made on the life of Prakashmani (Kumarka Dadi). It would enchant any young or impressionable mind and inspire them to follow her - as it did us. And yet, in so doing, they would not necessarily be free from vices since the restricted life would deprive them of experiencing and overcoming life's difficulties based on their individual capacities to find GOD through individual experiences. I guess the best illustration I've seen of this is in Hermann Hesse's Siddhartha which I re-read (in Japan) some nine years after coming to gyan. By the way, were you in charge of the Tokyo centre in 1985? I remember trying to find it then but without success. At that time I was in the throes of departing gyan. Gy _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...." 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